71 replies to this topic

[stonecarver]

Part of the point of my original post was that the term 'bluestones' is an out-dated and antiquarian nomenclature which encompasses many different types of rock.

Whilst it Is fair to say that amateurs, the public and indeed Some archaeologists still use this term, we should be wary of any so-called 'bluestones' that turn up, as it can be shown that many 'bluestone' axes are in fact Langdale Tuffs (from the axe-factory sites at great Langdale, the Lake District, Cumbria).

The Langdale Tuffs are a rock of volcanic origin and come in different shades of grey/green/blue. One of their characteristics is that when they are wet, they do indeed appear to be blue.

Without petrochemical analysis, it is not possible to state Where any particular 'bluestone' came from.

[stonecarver]

I am beginning to wonder, on the basis of the evidence, whether the so-called 'bluestones' at Stonehenge came from wales at all. There are other sources of spotted dolerite and dolerite in the UK.

I think the stones are just as likely to have come from Cumbria (if indeed, we go along with the assumption that they were not local to Stonehenge). The Langdale 'axe factories' were possibly the most important British site after Stonehenge (and certainly probably had a bigger impact on more people, given the very wide distribution of Cumbrian 'bluestone' axes).

[chimera]

If Delphi was a common centre for rival cities, is it possible that Stonehenge was a tribal centre? Could they have contributed to a united kingdom, giving local rock?
chimera

[stonecarver]

The possibility of the 'Bluestones ' at Stonehenge as coming from Wales is not just under question, it's becoming increasingly doubtful.

Recent studies show that many artefacts previously thought to be spotted dolerite from Preseli have been incorrectly identified by archaeologists and were not from Wales at all. Yet the techniques used initially to identify them as Preseli 'bluestones' were better than those used to identify the stones at Stonehenge!

Ergo, it is safe to to say that there is every chance the 'bluestones at Stonehenge' also are Not from Wales.

[stonecarver]

As there were possibly stones at Woodehenge which are now missing, and they were relatively diminutive (ie similar in size possibly to the 'bluestones' at Stonehenge), we might suggest that the bluestones at Stonehenge were brought there from Woodhenge... just a thought...

[Anew]

The way I read the abstract mentioned earlier by shiny; Blackwell-Synergy, Oxford Journal of Archaeology - Spotted Dolorite Source
Tests were pointing to the Preseli Hills, probably to a very specific site: Wikipedia on Carn Menyn


There are, however, as mentioned, dolorite sources in Cumbria; and this one seems particularly attractive: High Cup Nick

Stones quarried here could be slid down into the glacial valley.  Then, given enough water and the skill to handle it, rafted to and along the Eden to Solway Firth.

Here they could be transferred to more seaworthy vessels, (perhaps along the lines of a longboat), where the heavy compact stones could be secured amidships below the waterline --- serving well as ballast for the voyage around Wales and Lands End, to reach Stonehenge by the Avon.

There is an economic logic to this, as Stonehenge may have gained its apparent wealth as a center for the flint trade.  Flints departing Stonehenge or its environs by sea may have been traded for Cumbrian, (or Preselian), dolorites -- valuable for axes; a mutually beneficial arrangement.  This leads to the conjecture that the 'bluestones' of the temple were, in part, a display of its wealth ...a hoard, the material in repose.


In this context, the blue-gray-green-black aspect of the stones could hold maritime connotations.  These, along with white, are the colors of the sea; endless in its western reach -- to them, most likely, beyond Ireland -- over which the Sun departed each night.  It is entirely reasonable to imagine that their ceremonies involved the wetting of the stones, possibly with seawater.

[kevin.b]

Anew,

      Good post , just slightly out on your geography,
You dont need to go anywhere near lands end when coming down from Cumbria around Wales, then into the severn estuary to reach the Avon,
If I could ask the archeological minded a question?
As anew linked flint trade, to the movement of stones, seems totally reasonable to want ballast both ways?
Do you know how flint deposits are commonly found to be in the chalk ?
What I am wondering is , does it lie in straight lines?, does it form in circles?, both would seem reasonable due to the marine envioronment that it was layed down in?
If it is found in this fashion, would it not be reasonable to find the embankments of quarry sites to follow the flint deposits?
IE;' cursuses, the ditches around barrows?
Just a thought.
Kevin
Kevin

[Anew]

Quote

On 24 September 2006 at 08:34 AM; kevin.b wrote:
  
You dont need to go anywhere near lands end when coming down from Cumbria around Wales, then into the severn estuary to reach the Avon,

Agreed, but that's a different River Avon.  I had in mind the one which passes by Durrington Walls and quite close to Stonehenge, on its way south to the Channel.

As shippers found until modern times: it is far easier, though often more dangerous, to move loads over water than land.  I would have a wonderful device for overland transportation... but for the moment, I'm exploring the idea that they were confident at sea.  Thus the distance between Preseli and Cumbria mayn't have been all that significant -- if they found what they were after.

[kevin.b]

Anew, Fascinating thought.
http://www.wikipedia.../hampshire_avon
http://www.wikipedia...er_avon_bristol
We call the river you mention the Hampshire avon
The one from the severn is the bristol avon, confusing, there are more.
I had never considered a route that way, mainly because I had my mind fixed on Wales,
It is a treacherous route around lands end, but they may have been mariners superb?
Europe would appear to have golfers superb, sorry.
Kevin

[Anew]

Mariners superb?  I don't know.  One gets into the dilemma that the better they were, the farther they'd roam...  It's evident they traveled to the continent and back --- (the Jadeite axehead found by the sweet track has been traced to the Alps).  But Lewisian Gneiss is pretty too, and I've heard nothing of its wandering...  ...I've been doing some thinking, (my favorite pursuit), about what vessels they might have used.  Those of the Longboat-type could handle the job, (?), if they had the skills to build them, and that's a second if.

Simpler, a dugout trimaran may have sufficed.  And ably.
The central bole would, hypothetically, be left largely intact, rather like a torpedo with one flattened side, (intended to face up), and a cavity at its center for the cargo.  
Counterintuitively, the hold might work best facing downward.
It could be floated over its several tons of stone, this bundled if need be in leather, then weighted down, submerged, and loaded from below, all in shallow water.  
Once the stone was lashed down -- or, rather, lashed up; likely with leather padding and several abbutting coils of rope about the bole itself -- the submerging weights could be released, allowing the center-hull to rise to the surface.
Here it could be spun hold-up to allow the load to settle, the lashing tightened and re-enforced, then spun back over again so that the load was down and the bole's flattened side, up.
With the addition of platforms fore and aft for polemen, this might make an excellent rivercraft.
Upon reaching their transfer-point by the sea, poling platforms could be replaced with bridge-members and outer hulls, together with mast and sail if these were used, for the trimaran.
In my imagination, a team of between 4 and 6 rowers would sit in each outerhull, perhaps with a rudderman.
(Alternatively, it could ply the rivers as a trimaran but with much shorter bridging-members for a narrower front profile).

This would seem a competent vessel for the waters, but not one likely to raise questions of travel to Iceland or the Americas.  However I know of no multi-hull tradition thereabouts.  In this respect, the trimaran is intended to be different from the catamaran.  Sort of an odd-versus-even thing.  If one won't do, use three.

To return to the transfer point between river and sea...  As the sea-level has risen, I hear, since then, and they're unlikely to have left their seaport without a temple...
Underwater, under sediment, off the mouth of the Hampshire Avon, were it the stream used; would be an excellent place to look for a lost monument.  

Bonus: This quaint picture of the Avon at Salisbury

[stonecarver]

There is evidence for prehistoric boats in Britain that were capable of sea journeys.

The sewn-plank wooden boats were a type of vessel that were obviously the result of a long and developed tradition of boat-building. The most famous examples are those from Ferriby (Hull) and Dover. Johnstone (1980) compares them with the saviero boats of Portugal, which have short angled strakes abutting the central keel plank, with the lowest strake at right-angles to it, and were deep-hulled vessels.

They were definitely sea-faring peoples... we have evidence for many imported goods... such as baltic amber, European jadeite, Scandinavian flint... and of course - the tin in Cornwall was being exported to Europe.

[Anew]

Stonecarver, that is constructive.  It seems sewn-plank vessels could have been both within the reach of their technology, and able to carry the stones.
However, not giving up on dugouts, we can only infer that they had the sewn-plank technique in the Stone Age; even if, given the evidence, it is a reasonable inference.

Some interesting links:
Sewn Boats Homepage
Sewn boats and other watercraft reconstruction links
Replicas & Shipbuilding
The Guild of the Hjortspring Boat
The Dover Bronze Age Boat

Your case that these were seafaring peoples is well taken.  But I have some questions:

• Imported Scandinavian flint puzzles me, as Britain has its own.  I googled (Scandinavian flint Britain), but as you might expect, got swamped.  Could you provide a link?
  
• Was Baltic amber being imported during the Neolithic?  If so, who got it?  (It might make the trade networks clearer.)
  
• Was Stone-Age Britain exporting metal to Bronze Age Europe?  If so, the question arises, "In whose boats?"

[kevin.b]

Anew,  
        I appreciate the way you think, I also study the way Viktor Schauberger did the same, he watched and thought, his first ideas were to do with moving objects in water.
To do this he watched the water and thought about it, I am confident ancient mankind will have known every little secret of their world?
Your dugouts would be well suited to navigating the shallow freeflowing rivers, Schauberger used every little trick to carry loads that were seemingly impossible to float, cool ( 4 degrees) water full of energy.
Kevin

[stonecarver]

Wooden dugouts were definitely capable of maritime travel, the Polynesian canoes are evidence for that. Mc Grail's books are a good point of reference.

There Are Scandinavian flint axes found in a prehistoric context in Britain (I will look through my books and papers today and find some references for you Anew). Same for amber. Cornwall had the biggest depsoits of tin in Europe... and it was needed for bronze-making. I'll get back to you on these when I find a moment.

Robert Van De Noort's books 'The Humber wetlands' and 'Rethinking wetland archaeology' are excellent and discuss many aspects of prehsitoric maritime trade/travel and transportation.

Clare Fell suggested a maritime trade/exchange route along the west coast (as early as 1952, pp 9-10) for Cumbrian stone.

[colin]

stonecarver, on 28 August 2006, 15:41, said:

Now we opened the discussion properly.... and I'm pleased somebody has noticed... that the 'bluestones'... only 'Appear' to be blue, and they were given that epithet by Antiquarians (their 'apparent' colour hasn't changed much if At All in the last couple of hundred years).

They were Not blue, when they were erected. They are not all the same type of stone. There are four main types of rock (at Stonehenge) which the antiquarians termed bluestones. They are:-

dolerites, spotted dolerite, rhyolite, volcanic ash.

Other stones (such as the 'Altar stone') are other types, such as sandstone.

In 1923, H.H. Thomas went to Wales in search of rocks which might match those at Stonehenge... and found them near Presli... and so the Welsh connection was underpinned. But was it really their source?

Not to put too fine a point on it... the single biggest source of 'bluestone' axes in the British Isles, Is Langdale in the Lake District. Now, there, we have volcanic ash (Langdale Tuff), which is Truly blue-grey in colour... and yes, the colour of That particular rock-type certainly was One of the reasons those axes were so highly prized, and distributed throughout Britain in the Neolithic.

Have we been looking in the wrong direction all this time? Were the bluestones in fact, from Cumbria? where all those rock-types outcrop (as well as in Wales)? and was Thomas a member of the secret order of Druids? (therefore his choice of Wales as the source of the bluestones might not be impartial?).