80 replies to this topic

[Anew]

This topic deserves a thread of its own.  For background, please see: "The Moonring Effect & Stone Circles", and "Psychedelic Mushrooms and Stone Circle Culture" also in this forum; as well as the following page: Silbaby at TMA.


From looking at an ordnance-survey map of the area, I can confirm that Silbaby and Silbury are closely aligned when viewed from the Sanctuary's center, (member Pete G observed "exact" alignment).  I'll take his word on this, as it works well with other prospects; while also considering a road, said to date to Roman times, which may have altered the Silbaby site; and allegations surreptitious dumping -- colorfully, "Fly Tipping".

Interesting to me are the apparent landscape triangles:

• Silbury, Silbaby, and the entrance to West Kennet Long Barrow appear to form a, (non-pythagorean), right triangle.
  
• To complement this, The Sanctuary, Silbaby, and the entrance to West Kennet appear to form, (within the limitations of the map), an 8, 15, 17 right triangle.
  
• Silbury, Silbaby, and the east-north-east, (northern rising), entrance to the Avebury Henge may describe yet another right triangle.  Perhaps wishful thinking on my part -- but this one seems close to the sacred 5, 12, 13 "Lunation Triangle", (present in a different orientation at Stonehenge).
  
• And, continuing the line, the possible right triangle between Silbury, the Sanctuary, and this E-N-E entrance is also worthy of survey.

[Anew]

Anew, on 26 November 2006, 0:42, said:

Perhaps wishful thinking on my part -- but this one seems close to the sacred 5, 12, 13 "Lunation Triangle"

Yes, wishful thinking, the ratio of the short sides is not 5:12

Anew, on 26 November 2006, 0:42, said:

form, (within the limitations of the map), an 8, 15, 17 ... triangle.

More wishful thinking, the ratio of the short sides is not 8:15


They aren't pythagorean, sorry about that; but they still seem to be "right" triangles.  If Silbaby and Silbury are in alignment with the Sanctuary, then a generic right triangle northward to Avebury Henge involving Silbaby is a given, provided the Sanctuary and Silbury are in a right-triangular relationship with the Henge, which seems to hold up -- no major positioning clue for Silbaby there.  However a right-triangular relationship involving Silbaby and WKLB, with either Silbury or the Sanctuary as a third point, could explain the baby's positioning along this line.  That and/or the positioning of the spring feeding its moat.

[kevin.b]

Anew,
        Glad your putting your efforts into this, it deserves solid investigation.
Very oddly the Romans may have performed a great service by cutting over this spot.
It has been left alone.
I tried to understand why they had taken the road where they did, and its pretty obvious why, it all lies on a hill side leading down to the stream, the land by the stream is boggy.
Therefore unless they had gone to the other side of the hill, they had no option but to carve through this spot.
I am going back soon ,and will wander about in my own strange way, the sanctuary was far more complicated than I imagined, but I was getting well blown about, its really exposed, I found other flows which appeared to be coming in from Avebury .
With a compass I can nail exactly all the dead straight lines I detect, and thus the geometric patterns they create.
I could see huge rain cloud approaching Avebury the other day when I was there so I was not hanging around, I did find 34 lines crossing the sanctuary, I will map them out and see where they each lead to in both directions ( when I say 34 lines that is through 180 degrees, if you look down upon that from above, there would be 68 lines radiating out from the centre spot )
The road is dangerous, so it is rather difficult to wander about, when all of this site was new as such, it would have been far easier to survey it and pinpoint all the relevant spots.
The Kennet is central to it all, not just that which flows above ground, but the water below, it is all symbiotic and works together, the water is the carrier.
I have checked out in many open fields how all this system operates, the constructions are there to manipulate it, it doesn't mind been used, as it always finds its way back to natural.
We have many modern materials that could be brilliantly used to do this now, they had nothing but that which is natural, I prefer their ways, and am humbled at their efforts, truly stunning.
It's all as simple as a straight line, but then becomes really complicated, if you can SEE the straight lines, then it is so simple , it annoys me not to be able to convey this more easily, I would be ever so greatfull for all the assistance your talents could bring to bear upon this.
Kevin

[Pete G]

Don't forget there was a stone circle at Beckhampton Penning behind WKLB.
Continuing the line East beyond the Sanctuary there was a destroyed barrow named Bithams Barrow near West Overton, sadly now all destroyed.
PeteG

[kevin.b]

PeteG,
           When you say "behind wklb" do you mean south?
There are flows of what i detect coming into wklb from that direction, but without following them across what looked fairly open fields, I can't pinpoint where they are origonating from.
Imo, the constructions were built to enchance what is there naturally, therefore by following what I detect naturally, I can pinpoint the next major crossing point, if stones were arranged upon the relevant diameter of the polygons around the central point, or if not a single point , it can be a number of close together points( resulting in egg shaped etc circles) then the flows circulating the polygons can be sort of captured and encouraged to take what ever desired natural route that you want them to go along ( in nature they always take four dominate outlets at 90 degrees to each other)
By doing this you increase the potential flowing along the desired routes.
I understand your sceptism, and I look upon most dowsers myself with a sort of puzzlement, but when i watch them, I can quickly see which signals they are detecting, it is the ability to go from one signal to the other, and make sense of them that is really difficult.
I can do this with incresing ease.  And thanks to a little tinkerbell pushing me hard , I can measure with perfection what I detect, absolute perfection, the tinkerbell pushed me along swiftly.
Silbaby is your baby, its credit if proven will always be yours and rightly so, if in any strange way, I can offer assistance , I will, nobody needs to believe anything, but if it points to clues and a better understanding then we all gain.
Kevin

[Anew]

Quote

Anew,
Glad your putting your efforts into this, it deserves solid investigation.

Thanks but I skidded a bit on this one!

Pete G, on 26 November 2006, 8:07, said:

Don't forget there was a stone circle at Beckhampton Penning behind WKLB.
Continuing the line East beyond the Sanctuary there was a destroyed barrow named Bithams Barrow near West Overton, sadly now all destroyed.
PeteG

I found Bitham Barrow on the map, it can be lined up with Silbury and 'Baby; but that line passes just south of the Sanctuary.  This turns the triangle slightly so that both E-S-E and E-N-E causeways are intersected, the latter just barely.  The triangle is close to, but apparently not, a prized 5, 12, 13.  I can't find anything on the map to match the destroyed Beckhampton circle.

Another site which may be interesting, lying on or near a perpendicular from the midpoint of a line running from the Sanctuary to the center of Avebury, (+ marks the spot): is a former enclosure.  This may just be the luck of a plentiful draw, but who knows.

[kevin.b]

Anew ,
        When looking at alignments , dont be caught in the box, think out of the box, think edge of the circles.
http://www.jimloy.com/puzz/9dots0.htm
When I talk of flows from polygons, I do not talk of flows from the centre, but from various diameter edges around that centre point.
I detect nine parallel lines, for an aprox distance ,consider the first lines away from the centre line as been 21 feet ( or seven long strides as the witch at the rollright stones asked the so called king to take ) then the next line is that distance plus 50 %, or aprox 34 feet, then the origonal distance of 21 feet, then 21 feet again.
This gives an overall of 97 feet, this is not totally accurate but near.
from the centre at 21 feet, therefore is a strong circulation, and another at 55 feet, and another at 76 feet, and another at 97 feet.
The actual measurements are slightly higher than this but as an aproximation , and to demonstrate these will surfice.
To really complicate matters, then draw a line going from one edge of one polygon to the opposite edge of the next polygon.
That which travels along the lines can cross at will across lines, and the adjacent polygons will circulate in opposite directions.
Therefore if you follow one of these flows, it curves around a polygon, exits after 90 degrees heading for the next polygon on to its outer edge, you therefore appear to be following a winding invisable serpant trail.
This happens at each of the radiuses I have mentioned.
It is very much more complex than this simplified clumsy explanation, but its an attempt to show how not to be caught out trying to align along straight lines only.
The straight line alignments will exist, but it is that which flows that the megaliths are constructed to manipulate.
Think out of the box.
Kevin

[Anew]

Quote

Anew ,
        When looking at alignments , dont be caught in the box, think out of the box, think edge of the circles.

Alright, it seems like a good idea.  I've taken out my dividers and...

• A circle centered at Silbury, which reaches to the Sanctuary doesn't seem to intersect anything else.
  
• A circle centered at Silbury, which reaches to East Kennet passes very close to a number of Tumuli.
  
• A circle centered at Silbury, which reaches to WKLB's entrance is almost tangent with the end of the Avenue.  It intersects an unexplained round mark on the map to WKLB's west -- a reservoir, or possibly the lost circle Pete G mentioned.
  
• A circle centered at Silbury, which reaches to Silbaby does not seem to intersect anything else.
  
• A circle centered at Silbury, which reaches to Avebury's center intersects a Tumulus to the south of Beckhampton and one end of the longbarrow in the town's center.
  
  
• A circle centered on the Sanctuary, which reaches to Silbury, passes tangent to a tumulus at the north end of Waden Hill.
  
• A circle centered on the Sanctuary, which reaches to Silbaby, passes tangent to two tumuli, and very close to the northwest end of East Kennett long barrow.
  
• A circle centered on the Sanctuary, which reaches to the entrance of WKLB, may be tangent to the enclosure I mentioned in the last post.
  
• A circle centered on the Sanctuary, which reaches to Avebury's center passes tangent to a tumulus near the Wessex Ridgeway.
  
• A circle centered on the Sanctuary, which reaches to Avebury's E-N-E causeway intersects little else of note.
  
  
• A circle centered on Avebury, which reaches to WKLB's entrance also passes over the central part of Windmill Hill.
  
• A circle centered on Avebury, which reaches to the Sanctuary passes tangent to one stone grouping immediately northeast of the Sanctuary, and through the other.
  
• A circle centered on Avebury, which reaches to Silbury's center, passes between two isolated stones along the avenue, tangent to a tumulus in Beckhampton, and close to the enclosure of the previous post.
  
• A circle centered on Avebury, which passes through Silbaby appears to intersect little else of note.
  
  
• A circle centered on Avebury's E-N-E causeway, which passes through WKLB's entrance also passes through the center of Windmill Hill.
  
• A circle centered on Avebury's E-N-E causeway, which passes through the Sanctuary, passes through the stone assemblies to its northeast, tangent to and intersecting them in the opposite order than the one based on Avebury's center.  It also passes tangent to the Earthworks of Windmill Hill.

In an environment such as this, much of the above is probably coincidental -- to the extent that perfect coincidence can actually exist.  These measurements were made somewhat carelessly, and should probably be repeated.  The use of a higher-resolution map would also be of benefit.

[Nigel]

Anew,
I agree with this -
"a right-triangular relationship involving Silbaby and WKLB, with either Silbury or the Sanctuary as a third point, could explain the baby's positioning along this line."
Indeed, not just on a map. From the top of Silbaby you get one of the most auspicious views of WKLB in the Avebury landscape (see my photo on TMA) - not only does WKLB appear fully sideways on but the whole of it is visible (at the bottom of it and most other places the view of it is far less revealing as it is set rather over the crest of the hill. In domestic terms I could explain it like this - if you were a WKLB enthusiast and wanted a platform to view it at its best you'd choose just that spot at just that height.
That's intriguing clue One.

If you look at WKLB and turn your head exactly 90% to the left you see the Sanctuary and then exactly 180% back to the right you see Silbury. They are both some distance away so it is quite striking.
Those are intriguing clues 2 and 3.

But then - "That and/or the positioning of the spring feeding its moat." is an "or" clue rather than an "and" clue as of course Providence put the spring there, not Man. So either they deliberately placed it by the spring or they deliberately placed it on the Sanctuary-Silbury line but if they placed it because of ALL three they were very lucky the spring happened to be in the right place just there.

This is a puzzle. The lining up with S and S DOES seem deliberate. But I also think the spring WAS important to the placing. So were they just plain lucky?

There is another delicious possibility. What if Silbaby pre-dated Silbury. They built it next to a spring. And THEN they built Silbury to line up with Silbaby and the Sanctuary. Ergo, Silbaby is older than Silbury!

[Anew]

Nigel, on 26 November 2006, 18:23, said:

Anew,
I agree with this -
"a right-triangular relationship involving Silbaby and WKLB, with either Silbury or the Sanctuary as a third point, could explain the baby's positioning along this line."
Indeed, not just on a map. From the top of Silbaby you get one of the most auspicious views of WKLB in the Avebury landscape (see my photo on TMA) - not only does WKLB appear fully sideways on but the whole of it is visible (at the bottom of it and most other places the view of it is far less revealing as it is set rather over the crest of the hill. In domestic terms I could explain it like this - if you were a WKLB enthusiast and wanted a platform to view it at its best you'd choose just that spot at just that height.
That's intriguing clue One.

If you look at WKLB and turn your head exactly 90% to the left you see the Sanctuary and then exactly 180% back to the right you see Silbury. They are both some distance away so it is quite striking.
Those are intriguing clues 2 and 3.

But then - "That and/or the positioning of the spring feeding its moat." is an "or" clue rather than an "and" clue as of course Providence put the spring there, not Man. So either they deliberately placed it by the spring or they deliberately placed it on the Sanctuary-Silbury line but if they placed it because of ALL three they were very lucky the spring happened to be in the right place just there.

This is a puzzle. The lining up with S and S DOES seem deliberate. But I also think the spring WAS important to the placing. So were they just plain lucky?

There is another delicious possibility. What if Silbaby pre-dated Silbury. They built it next to a spring. And THEN they built Silbury to line up with Silbaby and the Sanctuary. Ergo, Silbaby is older than Silbury!

"In my experience, there's no such thing as luck." Obi-wan Kenobi, Star Wars

Your proposal makes sense, as the smaller effort would likely precede the larger; and WKLB is, to my understanding, the oldest major structure in the area; (outside Windmill Hill).  Thus they could site Silbaby for its view and the spring; giving them about 1 hill's width in flexibility.

It's interesting to consider that when building Silbury Hill, they appear to have gone after a spring -- through the tap trench in the western "reflecting-pond" extension of the moat -- possibly indicating that they were influenced by Silbaby's example, but wanted the hill itself positioned just so: Situated so that it completes, or comes close to completing, right triangles with both the Sanctuary and Avebury, (E-N-E causeway), and through Silbaby, with WKLB.  It could be that the pond itself was desirable, which is possible, but flexible unless they had some rule by which it was fed from a specific point within, (which to my mind is being too particular).  But then it could be the tap was a response to drought, and what we're seeing is, in part, field-driven self-assembly of circumstance; or "Karma".

Quote

"A lot o' people don't realize what's really going on. They view life as a bunch o' unconnected incidents 'n things. They don't realize that there's this, like, lattice o' coincidence that lays on top o' everything. Give you an example; show you what I mean: suppose you're thinkin' about a plate o' shrimp. Suddenly someone'll say, like, plate, or shrimp, or plate o' shrimp out of the blue, no explanation. No point in lookin' for one, either. It's all part of a cosmic unconciousness." -- Miller, Repo-Man

[Nigel]

Anew, on 27 November 2006, 0:24, said:

Your proposal makes sense, as the smaller effort would likely precede the larger

Yes. And the same is obviously true of the different stages of Silbury, the smaller Silbury 2 preceded the final larger Silbury 3. And it is at this point that the intriguing clues/coincidences start crowding in on you because see this, Silbury from the Sanctuary, with Silbaby hidden in the trees but dead in line according to Pete's ranging rods - http://www.themodern....com/post/19965

Would not the Sanctuary, the top of Silbaby and the top of Silbury 2 be in a straight line? Three small points in space, (2 viewing platforms and a mortuary house), perfectly aligned horizontally AND vertically! What are the chances? What would Obi-wan Kenobi say?

[Anew]

Nigel, on 26 November 2006, 20:00, said:

Yes. And the same is obviously true of the different stages of Silbury, the smaller Silbury 2 preceded the final larger Silbury 3. And it is at this point that the intriguing clues/coincidences start crowding in on you because see this, Silbury from the Sanctuary, with Silbaby hidden in the trees but dead in line according to Pete's ranging rods - http://www.themodern....com/post/19965

Would not the Sanctuary, the top of Silbaby and the top of Silbury 2 be in a straight line? Three small points in space, (2 viewing platforms and a mortuary house), perfectly aligned horizontally AND vertically! What are the chances? What would Obi-wan Kenobi say?

I know what Vader would say: "The force is strong in this one." (sound of breathing)


I keep finding a subtle misalignment of the three on my map, (admittedly not to the finest scale, and on which Silbaby proper is hard to pin down.)  You probably have a copy yourself, and some which are better.  This doesn't toss the whole idea in the wastebasket, there is the road to consider, (if it cut), and to my mind, close would be plenty good enough; but it's something worth considering, as a cut may have affected the height.

Elevations & Distances:  I'm coming up with about 169 meters for the Sanctuary, 152.5 for the ground about Silbaby, (would you have a height for that?),  and 150 meters for the ground level at Silbury.  A height estimate shouldn't be too hard to get on Silbury 2; uh, incorrect...  My only source for this is a printout of the plan at stonehenge-avebury.net, which yields 14.5m.  I'd like to be able to do better there.  I'm coming up with about 725m between Silbury and Silbaby, and 1200m between Silbaby and the Sanctuary.

Doing the trig: The angle of declination from the Sanctuary to the top of S2 is nearly flat, (about .13 degrees).  Silbaby is on slightly higher ground than S2... and the result is:  About 13.73 meters tall, from its base, will do the trick.


The envelope, please.

[Nigel]

Anew, on 27 November 2006, 2:34, said:

Nigel, on 26 November 2006, 20:00, said:

Yes. And the same is obviously true of the different stages of Silbury, the smaller Silbury 2 preceded the final larger Silbury 3. And it is at this point that the intriguing clues/coincidences start crowding in on you because see this, Silbury from the Sanctuary, with Silbaby hidden in the trees but dead in line according to Pete's ranging rods - http://www.themodern....com/post/19965

Would not the Sanctuary, the top of Silbaby and the top of Silbury 2 be in a straight line? Three small points in space, (2 viewing platforms and a mortuary house), perfectly aligned horizontally AND vertically! What are the chances? What would Obi-wan Kenobi say?

I know what Vader would say: "The force is strong in this one." (sound of breathing)


I keep finding a subtle misalignment of the three on my map, (admittedly not to the finest scale, and on which Silbaby proper is hard to pin down.)  You probably have a copy yourself, and some which are better.  This doesn't toss the whole idea in the wastebasket, there is the road to consider, (if it cut), and to my mind, close would be plenty good enough; but it's something worth considering, as a cut may have affected the height.

Elevations & Distances:  I'm coming up with about 169 meters for the Sanctuary, 152.5 for the ground about Silbaby, (would you have a height for that?),  and 150 meters for the ground level at Silbury.  A height estimate shouldn't be too hard to get on Silbury 2; uh, incorrect...  My only source for this is a printout of the plan at stonehenge-avebury.net, which yields 14.5m.  I'd like to be able to do better there.  I'm coming up with about 725m between Silbury and Silbaby, and 1200m between Silbaby and the Sanctuary.

Doing the trig: The angle of declination from the Sanctuary to the top of S2 is nearly flat, (about .13 degrees).  Silbaby is on slightly higher ground than S2... and the result is:  About 13.73 meters tall, from its base, will do the trick.


The envelope, please.

Depends which ground you mean - the front of it is on the flood plain similar to Silbury - http://www.themodern....com/post/33300
However, assuming your calcs are right - "13.73 meters tall, from its base, will do the trick" it looks rather short of that on the photo. Maybe 3 or 4 metres short?

Of course, we don't know if it had a wooden Viewing Platform of Doom or whatever on top
Nor do we know if a flat top is a deliberate flat top or a subsequently truncated flat top.
I can certainly find you 1.75 metres towards bridging the gap - the height from the ground to the observer's eyes. There is evidence they may have designed to such a tolerance. At one point in the Avebury South circle you can just see Silbury peeping over the intervening shoulder of Waden Hill (and vice versa of course). Bend your knees and its gone!

[Anew]

Nigel, on 27 November 2006, 2:54, said:

Depends which ground you mean - the front of it is on the flood plain similar to Silbury - http://www.themodern....com/post/33300
However, assuming your calcs are right - "13.73 meters tall, from its base, will do the trick" it looks rather short of that on the photo. Maybe 3 or 4 metres short?

Of course, we don't know if it had a wooden Viewing Platform of Doom or whatever on top
Nor do we know if a flat top is a deliberate flat top or a subsequently truncated flat top.
I can certainly find you 1.75 metres towards bridging the gap - the height from the ground to the observer's eyes. There is evidence they may have designed to such a tolerance. At one point in the Avebury South circle you can just see Silbury peeping over the intervening shoulder of Waden Hill (and vice versa of course). Bend your knees and its gone!

"Platform of Doom or whatever on top "
Yes, I take responsibility for that one. I still like the idea of a tophouse for whatever purpose came to their mind -- and this would not necessarily have precluded a panoramic view, (aside from those timbers used in support).  If they meant these things to embody mushrooms, (an idea I favor), the lines would have been continued, if not brought convex.  Thinking comparatively: Pyramids are fairly common in ancient cultures.  They have a cousin in the ziggurat -- are there any examples of bare-topped ones?

"Nor do we know if a flat top is a deliberate flat top or a subsequently truncated flat top."
True, but to what purpose?  Egyptian pyramids were tombs, yet Silbury has yielded but one simple burial, (unfortunately lost to study).

"I can certainly find you 1.75 metres towards bridging the gap - the height from the ground to the observer's eyes."
An advantage in looking from Silbaby, but a disadvantage, for this effect, when looking from the Sanctuary -- (unless they felt the dead looked from there, lying down).  However, if that's the case, I doubt the Sanctuary was more than a temporary mortuary... It's right on the Ridgeway, and the reek of rotting or burning flesh would become an issue.

"At one point in the Avebury South circle you can just see Silbury peeping over the intervening shoulder of Waden Hill (and vice versa of course). Bend your knees and its gone!"
Neat, but as Waden hill has been brought under cultivation, I expect it's lost something in height over the centuries.

"However, assuming your calcs are right - "13.73 meters tall, from its base, will do the trick" it looks rather short of that on the photo. Maybe 3 or 4 metres short?"
The best place I can to think of to look for corrections would be a core-based estimate of the actual height of S2, I took my figure from a highly schematic diagram -- a better reference is needed.   The second consideration would be the roadfacing slope of Silbaby, which dumping may have masked.  Does it have the same profile as the free slope, or is it steeper.  How deep did the road cut into this hill?  To be honest, on the OS map, it appears as if the crown of the hill was once, where the road currently is -- if there was an exact alignment.  I'm curious about a sarsen I heard was on the top: (?) Is it alone?  Is it at center?

[Nigel]

The simple check would be to eyeball it. Find the height of Silbury 2, climb up Silbury to that level.... can you see the Sanctuary, just peeping over the top of Silbaby? Yes? QED.
But we aren't allowed on Silbury.

"The second consideration would be the roadfacing slope of Silbaby, which dumping may have masked.  Does it have the same profile as the free slope, or is it steeper.  How deep did the road cut into this hill?  To be honest, on the OS map, it appears as if the crown of the hill was once, where the road currently is"

The current situation (as I recall) looks like this -
You have a cone built into and against a steep straight bank.
Its flat top is the same height as the modern verge and road (ergo, higher than the Roman road which presumably was lower than the modern one.
There is a level "causeway" linking the verge with the cone top. Its clear to me this is a modern artefact, maybe made up of initial fly tipping debris, and providing vehicular access,if you wanted it from the road to the top of the mound.
On the road face of the cone the land slopes down at much the same angle as it does everywhere else (except for where this has been hidden by the existence of the causeway) and the fact its truly a cone is clear to me as you can see the slope of it curving back on itself, again except where the causeway obscures it. I'd say you can discern maybe four fifths or more of a cone at the top and, save for the modern causeway, all of it.
I'd also guess the Roman road  cut into it virtually not at all and left it still looking as a cone.

Much guessing there, and its hard to express solid geometry.