23 replies to this topic

[Anew]

Clarifying statement, added 31 March 2007 : I started this post to respond to Pete's posts 2 & 15 .. Having clicked the reply bar to 15, intending to say I was somewhat confused -- I noticed an included image file, called domino.jpg, in the post; which wouldn't and doesn't, display .. From there it was off to the races, the title being my touch .... So here it is again, legitimate

Pete G, on 29 March 2007, 21:06, said:

I think with the end of the month looming we should consider the very latest carvings at Stonehenge!

PeteG

"Take this brother may it serve you well"


God this is fascinating, note how the upper cup marks point unambiguously into the top center of the trilithion .. Indicating that the highest attainable level of this series has been reached and the next will begin on a new plane .. A revolutionary find, -ary find, -ary find, -ary find


Postscript, also 31 March : Thank you Pete, for your help and good humor

[stonecarver]

Anew,

you have supposedly quoted me - but you have Added text - therefore it is not a quotation quote - ergo - it is not what I orinially posted, it has been altered... and you misrepresent what I have been saying by so doing.

I think if you're going to abuse the forum in this way, you shouldn't be here. Diego informed of abuse.

[Diego]

Pete G, on 30 March 2007, 3:06, said:

I think with the end of the month looming we should consider the very latest carvings at Stonehenge!

Thank you so much Pete for a light-hearted post on this thread. We were getting quite fed up of discussions leading to nowhere...

[kevin.b]

Anew,
          I commend your thinking about these carvings upon stone henge, but.
The  thread is taking on a curiouser and curiouser pathway.
The referencfe to curiouser and curiouser is to Alice in wonderland, a childrens story were she shrank, and was talking to a caterpillar sat upon a toadstool , smoking a hookah pipe.
The timing of the henge construction co-incides with many relevant written history of people partaking of hallucigenic drugs, mainly from,
http://en.wikipedia....manita_muscaria
I wont repeat what is in there, but i would draw attention to the fact that one of the most noteable effects of digesting these things is that people either appear as tiny or as giants, and there is a wealth of past references to these in most cultures ( fairies and giants )
Stone henge is a circle, of specific circumference, many toadstool rings form upon exactly the same diameters?
Whether the carvings are of fungi or axes , or neither , is debatable, but it appears as though this thread has done exactly what the toadstools are reported to do.
They pop up from nowhere ( 1st time poster )
The people using them were referred to as the beserkers ( Some are showing symtoms of going beserk? )
Those that could not afford to digest the fungi direct , waited and drank the urine of the shaman who had, hence the term "Taking the piss"( admittadly in a humerous and clever way, domino's )

So , its bye bye again , I think of you a free thinker, using your knowledge to further the understanding of the megaliths that were constructed at very very different times as to now.
We are now surrounded by a sea of drugs, as people have lost all reason to do anything else, perhaps some things just stay the same?
I only came back on here because of the respect I have for you, but it seems anything outside what is written down , is unacceptable , and causes people to go beserk ( I like that word )

The links I provided were to better comprehend the usage of  fly agaric by primitive people as the works of gordon wasson reported, I in no way , as is implyed in the words in place of the links do imply, condone any taking of drugs.
I shall now remove this site from my list of links.
I would ask Diego to remove for good my password etc, as I will not need it anymore.
Kevin,

[Diego]

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Whether the carvings are of fungi or axes , or neither , is debatable, but it appears as though this thread has done exactly what the toadstools are reported to do.[/quote]
I believe your enthusiasm for the so-called alternative theories makes you forget that you are a guest of a community, and everything you write may cause excitement and curiosity but it can also bother and anger some people reading this forum. As we are the owners and editors of this forum (and we are paying $$$ each year to keep its software updated, not to mention the hours spent maintaining it) we have the right to choose an editorial plan. And that involves keeping traditional archaeology and alternative theories on separate sections. However, you and other users are often so eager to discuss your own alternative views on every possible thread that the result is a forum full of something that many visitors of this forum consider a pure annoyance. We received many complaints about it, so our duty is to keep things pleasant for the majority of people visiting this forum. And that implies a control of what is being written - including links to external websites.

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The links I provided were to better comprehend the usage of  fly agaric by primitive people as the works of gordon wasson reported, I in no way , as is implyed in the words in place of the links do imply, condone any taking of drugs.[/quote]
We didn't remove those links without checking the relative linked pages. And - honestly - we can't see anything archaeological nor scientific in the claims made on those pages. We know perfectly well that you have never implied the use of drugs, while adding those links, but - again - we received so many complaints that it was clear your contribution wasn't appreciated at all by other users.

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I would ask Diego to remove for good my password etc, as I will not need it anymore.[/quote]
We will always keep the door open - there is no need to ban, censor or clean any message if everybody behaves in a responsible way.

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[kevin.b]

Diego,
        I consider that archaeology is doing everyone a huge diss-service by locking itself so tightly into material provable theories.
Unless the central roll of human beings is totally added into this mixture , you will always remain locked in material solid blindness.
All the evidence of previous civilizations is of human manufacture and usage, but the very pertinant belief and traditions of those people is central to the core of comprehending the sites.
How can any discussion be alternative?
Alternative to what?
Anew has already said that whatever these carvings are or were to represent, they may be symbiotic to whatever they were, and any travelling tribe of craftsmen/women capable of constructing stone henge must be a highly complex mixture of peoples with vastly different ideals and practises than present.
The only possible way to try to achieve any understanding of what may have been the effect of consuming toadstools is to try and find any evidence of any sort that has been reported.
Universities etc are not going to sponser any trials or expeditions based upon this sort of study.
But the bottom line is that now is now, and not when these sites were constructed, so unless you try to comprehend those times and any relevant practises , how can you say anything about them?
If you constantly deny this, you simply further entrench and compound a false theory of history, if human beings , especially all the preist and higher end of humanity were constantly tripping, then it needs looking into very thoroughly, the very reason for making the axes etc may lie in their fear of what they saw all the time when tripping upon these toadstools.
There is a lot of evidence linking this  to Ambrosia etc, the drink of the gods, is this what christianity is based on, spaced out toadstool belief?
I fully realise the problem with archaeologists who have been repeatadly taught for generations a certain line, and now they accept this as provable facts.
This is why I feel it is better if I leave the site, I am as equally offended as any that have complained to you, so why have any upset, I will leave.
That way those that remain can feel comfortable in their world of known provable facts.
So I again thank you for this wonderfull site, and wish all the very very best, but I am off, off to seek the truth, without predjudice and the burden of conforming to dogma .
I may find you are all quite correct, but I may find you are all living in denial.
I am free , and in the pay of no one, so It,s off down the rabbit hole for Me, some may say " yes as mad as a March Hare "
We will See?
Kevin

[Maju]

Anew, on 29 March 2007, 6:21, said:

I broke off the previous quote a bit too quickly .. here it continues

Quote

Two days later, the schoolboy son of one of the excavation helpers found another axe, on the outer face of stone 4.  Through the summer, more axes were spotted, at least a dozen more on stone 4, on stone 3 and, again, on stone 53.  In August, a visiting archaeologist, Brian Hope-Taylor, saw a second and smaller dagger on the side of 53, and other carvings were spotted that were too faint or weathered to identify easily.  One, a worn sub-rectangular shape on stone 57, resembled early carvings in Brittany.

The flat axes were undoubtedly prehistoric, a standard Irish type with a broad cutting edge curved in a crescent and a tapering butt which was known in mainland Britain and dated to about 1600-1400 BC.  They were further evidence of the northern aspect of the Wessex aristocracy's trade-routes.

The dagger was more exotic; its appearance -- with a straight-sided tapering blade expanding sideways into 'horns' at the base, short hilt and wide pommel -- could not be matched anywhere in northern Europe.  But there were parallels from Greece, in the rich royal graves of the citadel of Mycenae itself, a dagger from shaft-grave VI and a dagger-carving on a stone over shaft-grave V.

From Stonehenge Complete by Christopher Chippindale, (0-500-28467-9); pages 202-203

Mr. Chippindale then forwards what I see as erroneous speculation, (nothing I've ever been guilty of ;-), that a Mycenaean architect designed Stonehenge and was handsomely buried under Silbury Hill .... That aside, the apparent images of Irish axes and a Mycenaean dagger (s) imply a monument capital of considerable influence during this period .. as the plethora of barrow burials in the area attest

This would also help date the carvings to some time in the Middle Bronze Age, not likely before 1600 bce, the earlier part of the quoted range of these axes, (above); which is coincidentally when the Mycenaean age of Greek history is said to have begun .. Wikipedia on Mycenae .. Turning again to Appendix 3 from Hengeworld by Mike Pitts, (0-09-927875-8), page 341: the "large sarsen structures" of Stonehenge have been dated with 95% confidence to between 2461 & 2205 bce., at the inside more than 600 years earlier .. It also seems to place these carvings well after the bluestone circle & oval, said to date from between 2267 & 1983 bce. (page 342)

IF these daggers represent Mycenean types and the mounds are also a Greek influence, that would be a most interesting element (at least for me). It's quite evident that trans-Mediterranean (Aegean-Iberia) trade increased since maybe c. 1800 (beginning of Bronze Age in southern Iberia, migration of the tholos burial type to the Aegean) and that by c. 1500 BCE El Argar civilization adopted the Minoan/Mycenean burial practices of pithos (large jars), what means that by this date it was totally under Mycenean cultural influence, even if the direct material evidence is otherwise scarce.

In my opinion, Mycenean Greeks headed westward in search specially of tin, that was essential for their metallurgy and that was surely rather scarce in the Eastern Mediterranean, while being very aboundant in NW Iberia and SW Britain. This tendency to go to the distant "Hesperides" (western world), after the rather mysterious collapse of Mycenean civilization, would be replicated quickly by the entrepreneur Phoenicians, whose very first colony was apparently Gadir (modern Cádiz), even, if being already in the Iron Age, their need of tin was less imperious.

I discussed elsewhere long ago about the Bronze-Iron transition in the Eastern Mediterranean/West Asia and it seems that it was precisely the lack of tin (probably caused by the disruption of the western "colonial" supplies c. 1300-1200 BCE), what stimulated the research of new iron alloys (steel) that made iron sturdy and of comparable usefulness as the then rarer and more costly bronze, or eventually even better for most purposes.

I hope this helps to put in context what Myceneans could have been doing in Britain (if they were there at all) and in what dates (probably not before 1500 BCE nor much later than 1300 BCE - middle Bronze Age in "pan-European" chronology, though rather "late" in the case of Greece).

[BuckyE]

Kevin, you'll be stymied in this discussion by the --as far as I know-- complete lack of ethnographic evidence of fly agaric use outside of siberia. Even poor old John Allegro fell into the trap of "artistic similarity" with the frontispice to his "Sacred Mushroom and the Cross." Beware art, it's tricky!

[kevin.b]

BuckyE, on 6 November 2007, 15:31, said:

Kevin, you'll be stymied in this discussion by the --as far as I know-- complete lack of ethnographic evidence of fly agaric use outside of siberia. Even poor old John Allegro fell into the trap of "artistic similarity" with the frontispice to his "Sacred Mushroom and the Cross." Beware art, it's tricky!

BuckyE,
           Hello , Hope you  and yours are keeping well?
Kevin