68 replies to this topic

[tiompan]

seanachai, on 26 October 2008, 20:22, said:

Tiompan,

Let me see if I got this right, half a meter away from the stone in the photo at Townhead, is one with a similar motif and another in the same field?  Do you have any photos you can share?  With regards to your last sentence, you're saying that Townhead would dwarf the Kensal Green Cemetery.  No, for one simple reason, the size of the monuments which cups, rings and other symbols depict, do not have to be on par with a Raith na Ríg or Knowth, but depending on their context, i.e. the size of the site, may only have been a meter in height and width. So those three plots at Townhead may have only been ten meters across.

No, the other motif is on the same stretch of rock and is half a metre from the "banjo" , yet another similar motif is in the same field .If you include all the motifs at Townhead ( there are a lot ) ,  they would ,if representing burials the size of small field clearances cover a big area . It wasn't really being serious as I don't buy the idea for many reasons as previous posts elsewhere would show . Pics of the site can be found at http://rockartuk.fotopic.net/ .
Go to Dumfries scroll to  Townhead  .FWIW , to date there are no prehistoric burials found in the Townhead area

George

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[seanachai]

Tiompan,

Has the area ever been excavated or a geo-survey conducted, like at Tara?  Who would have believed that An Forradh consisted of 6 ramparts, as apposed to the two we see in the landscape today, but they're right there on the topo grad map, just like those found on the orthostat within the MOTH. That said, I don't believe all cups and rings represent monuments.  Some may be an early form of heraldry, which I discuss in my paper.  It all depends on the context within which the symbols are used.

[tiompan]

seanachai, on 26 October 2008, 22:37, said:

Tiompan,

Has the area ever been excavated or a geo-survey conducted, like at Tara?  Who would have believed that An Forradh consisted of 6 ramparts, as apposed to the two we see in the landscape today, but they're right there on the topo grad map, just like those found on the orthostat within the MOTH. That said, I don't believe all cups and rings represent monuments.  Some may be an early form of heraldry, which I discuss in my paper.  It all depends on the context within which the symbols are used.

Of course it hasn't been excavated   or  geofizzed. Due to the lack of monumnets  , although there has been  a move in the past few years to excvaate around rock art sites Townhead isn't one . Not only do you cherry pick but seem to be stuck in the thinking that  each motif in a panel of rock art "means " something  . "Rock art as text " has been done to death , structuralists  and post structuralists have came up with nothing .Start off  with something simpler like Pictish engravings there may be a one one to mapping there but even that's unlikely .

George

[tiompan]

As a wee exercise in pareidolia I took the nearest example of rock art to my home , ,I found this about five years ago and it's quite ornate for the area ,see http://rockartuk.fot...et/c397810.html for it's full glory . When compared with a section of part of the Tara map ( I hope Anthony didn't mind ) it shows that Tara  may have been designed by a Dundee architect or maybe there is another explanation .


                    George

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[davidjones]

“the landscape setting of many carvings does provide a few clues. Recent research suggests that many are associated with the fringes of uplands and with important paths of access between lower and higher ground. On occasion, they seem to line the route towards important monument complexes. This is by no means a black and white pattern, but the tendency for carvings to be located in this way suggests that some at least were in places that were visited from time to time by people on the move.” GardWeb


If you have noticed my more muted debate next door about chun castle ,quoit and pendeen carn this carving is on the pendeen carn lower peek and twenty feet from the groove that I've shown , a common used walkway even today. Rory who I mentioned in my comments has beliefs relating to it being a plan of either the area or a site on the hill. I'm glad you are all not in the same room it might end in a blood bath and all the people who new how to build the relevant tomb would be lost!

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[tiompan]

davidjones, on 31 December 2008, 3:22, said:

“the landscape setting of many carvings does provide a few clues. Recent research suggests that many are associated with the fringes of uplands and with important paths of access between lower and higher ground. On occasion, they seem to line the route towards important monument complexes. This is by no means a black and white pattern, but the tendency for carvings to be located in this way suggests that some at least were in places that were visited from time to time by people on the move.” GardWeb


If you have noticed my more muted debate next door about chun castle ,quoit and pendeen carn this carving is on the pendeen carn lower peek and twenty feet from the groove that I've shown , a common used walkway even today. Rory who I mentioned in my comments has beliefs relating to it being a plan of either the area or a site on the hill. I'm glad you are all not in the same room it might end in a blood bath and all the people who new how to build the relevant tomb would be lost!

      From the pic it looks like it may be genuine , if it is then it is even more noteworthy than usual as  Cornwall has so little recorded rock art . A rectangular frame is uncommon anywhere in Britain so even better . Rather than going over old ground regarding the "map " hypothesis I'll just mention that out of the thousands of examples of non-representational rock art in Britain none has ever been accepted by rock art researchers or archaeologists  as being a "map" of the surrounding area or the heavens .

George

[davidjones]

Rather than going over old ground regarding the "map " hypothesis I'll just mention that out of the thousands of examples of non-representational rock art in Britain none has ever been accepted by rock art researchers or archaeologists  as being a "map" of the surrounding area or the heavens .

George
[/quote]
Well for what little its worth you can sit quite comfortably either side of the carving and still monitor the coast -so for me its a lookouts game board - perhaps as i've said , a version of fox and geese - not sure how to play - but not nine mens morris as that is three concentric squares joined by lines ,with no centre marker. A version of which was found at wharram percy (carved on a stone) the desserted medieval village near malton in yorkshire Where I dug up my first and only skeleton aged 14.

[davidjones]

Rather than going over old ground regarding the "map " hypothesis I'll just mention that out of the thousands of examples of non-representational rock art in Britain none has ever been accepted by rock art researchers or archaeologists as being a "map" of the surrounding area or the heavens .

George
[/quote]
o.k. what if, just what if ,the carving within the Moth is a map and because of its position over the years it becomes part of the religious rites and ceremonies of the day . Any visitors to this holy place might take copies of this imagery away with them and in and around other holy venues , pilgrim ways and the transition between lowlands and uplands or other sacred areas these motifs are repeated and some small offering / chant is made as people pass by. It would be no different than today if you travelled across country in Italy and you came across a small shrine with a copy of the virgin mary. Another example - I have always since seeing where the large carving of aqua sulis was found , part buried next to the natural hot springs of Bath was the originator of our present day green man. A sketch taken back home and repeated and displayed then absorbed even into the fabric of our churches as one religion absorbs another.
You only need a break of a couple of generations for the true origin of anything to be replaced with more mythical interpretations and attributes especially without the written word. Even then christianity has split devided and reinterprited the bible many times over.

"it shows that Tara may have been designed by a Dundee architect or maybe there is another explanation . "


George
Well George perhaps your Dundee architect made a visit to Ireland and came back with the story of a strange stone depicting a Holy place reveered by many!

[tiompan]

[/quote]
o.k. what if, just what if ,the carving within the Moth is a map and because of its position over the years it becomes part of the religious rites and ceremonies of the day . Any visitors to this holy place might take copies of this imagery away with them and in and around other holy venues , pilgrim ways and the transition between lowlands and uplands or other sacred areas these motifs are repeated and some small offering / chant is made as people pass by. It would be no different than today if you travelled across country in Italy and you came across a small shrine with a copy of the virgin mary. Another example - I have always since seeing where the large carving of aqua sulis was found , part buried next to the natural hot springs of Bath was the originator of our present day green man. A sketch taken back home and repeated and displayed then absorbed even into the fabric of our churches as one religion absorbs another.
You only need a break of a couple of generations for the true origin of anything to be replaced with more mythical interpretations and attributes especially without the written word. Even then christianity has split devided and reinterprited the bible many times over.

"it shows that Tara may have been designed by a Dundee architect or maybe there is another explanation . "


George
Well George perhaps your Dundee architect made a visit to Ireland and came back with the story of a strange stone depicting a Holy place reveered by many!
[/quote]

Hello David ,
                       accepting the big if ,I would be inclined to think the stone was initially part of the religious rites and ceremonies when it was erected rather than becoming such . Irish passage grave markings, with the possible exception of a motif that is sometimes described   as a “sun” symbol , is entirely non-representational , some of the motifs are found in earlier passage graves in Brittany and Iberia and it is possible to argue for a  distinction between the markings found outside the tombs  i.e. on the kerb stones and those found in the tombs . The accepted view is that the outside markings are public and the interior passage and chamber art private ,we have no way of knowing if this was  the case but is mainly derived from a common sense approach to the architecture . All the motifs on the stone are found elsewhere in similar positions and of earlier dates and some of the  orthostats may have been re-used from monuments . Bearing all that in mind I don’t see how that particular stone would be any more revered than any other or have a function different from any of the other hundreds in a similar situation . But ultimately I don’t accept the big “If” . The Dundee architect was just to show that you can make abstract rock art motifs appear to represent almost anything . We have huge problems attempting to understand representational rock art never mind the abstract .

George

[davidjones]

. We have huge problems attempting to understand representational rock art never mind the abstract .

George
[/quote]
So basically the juries out and all to play for . Hears hoping for a Rosetta moment one day.

[tiompan]

[/quote]
So basically the juries out and all to play for . Hears hoping for a Rosetta moment one day.
[/quote]


The jury may not have case to consider . Don't hold your breath on a Rosetta , the earliest writing likely to be on the same marked surfaces in Britain i.e. ogham or runes post date the earlier markings by at least a  millenium and probably much more .

George

[davidjones]

o.k. George I had a look at the pictures on the rock art site and I have to admit only pictures not text. What's with the multiple cut lines? They are not distructive enough to be defacing and too long for axe marks ,and uninterupted so not over flesh and bone , over undulating surface so no form of sword and not a chasing mark like the original carvings. Ceremonial through flesh or skin perhaps or just part of some ceremony . I doubt part of an art instalation .   These cut marks appear on a number of these examples of rock art are they seen as being contemporary?

[davidjones]

davidjones, on 6 January 2009, 22:46, said:

o.k. George I had a look at the pictures on the rock art site and I have to admit only pictures not text. What's with the multiple cut lines? They are not distructive enough to be defacing and too long for axe marks ,and uninterupted so not over flesh and bone , over undulating surface so no form of sword and not a chasing mark like the original carvings. Ceremonial through flesh or skin perhaps or just part of some ceremony . I doubt part of an art instalation .   These cut marks appear on a number of these examples of rock art are they seen as being contemporary?

I think this time I can answer my own question as the stones are under turf and flat I suppose the best answer would be plough marks? And a seriously pissed off ploughman. Or are these cut marks found in more inaccesable places?

[davidjones]

"All the motifs on the stone are found elsewhere in similar positions and of earlier dates and some of the orthostats may have been re-used from monuments . Bearing all that in mind I don’t see how that particular stone would be any more revered than any other or have a function different from any of the other hundreds in a similar situation ".


So are you saying that all these rings and cupmarks are just random decoration repeated all over europe and signify nothing - nothing at all. I find it harder to believe that some grafety artist has persuaded so many religious sites to carve the equivalent of smiley faces over such a large area   than that these markings could represent henges and other features in their lanscape even the 'banjo' you show looks remarkabley like a stone circle ditch and entrance

[tiompan]

davidjones, on 7 January 2009, 0:21, said:

davidjones, on 6 January 2009, 22:46, said:

o.k. George I had a look at the pictures on the rock art site and I have to admit only pictures not text. What's with the multiple cut lines? They are not distructive enough to be defacing and too long for axe marks ,and uninterupted so not over flesh and bone , over undulating surface so no form of sword and not a chasing mark like the original carvings. Ceremonial through flesh or skin perhaps or just part of some ceremony . I doubt part of an art instalation .   These cut marks appear on a number of these examples of rock art are they seen as being contemporary?

I think this time I can answer my own question as the stones are under turf and flat I suppose the best answer would be plough marks? And a seriously pissed off ploughman. Or are these cut marks found in more inaccesable places?

               Could you tell me the name/ location of the stones ?

George