68 replies to this topic

[tiompan]

davidjones, on 6 January 2009, 23:39, said:

"All the motifs on the stone are found elsewhere in similar positions and of earlier dates and some of the orthostats may have been re-used from monuments . Bearing all that in mind I don’t see how that particular stone would be any more revered than any other or have a function different from any of the other hundreds in a similar situation ".


So are you saying that all these rings and cupmarks are just random decoration repeated all over europe and signify nothing - nothing at all. I find it harder to believe that some grafety artist has persuaded so many religious sites to carve the equivalent of smiley faces over such a large area   than that these markings could represent henges and other features in their lanscape even the 'banjo' you show looks remarkabley like a stone circle ditch and entrance

    The markings may not have been random , but that doesn't mean we should expect each motif to be iconic or a signifier and thus enable us to "read " the markings as text . I believe the semiotic approach to reading "culture " never mind literature has produced little light and when used in rock art , even less  . Wherever we can interpret there is meaning is the assumption and that is the start of the problem of all the “RA  means this “ stuff . Some of the most important meanings for us are found in music , ritual , art , religion yet none of these are codes /languages .
The motifs used in RA , are limited  ,being curvilinear or geometric and have some resemblance to   natural phenomena e.g.  tree rings , whirlpools , snakes , stars or material culture but where out of all the thousands of examples is there a direct provable relationship .  As an example the  U shape is quite common in passage grave art and there are two back to back on the MoTH orthostat , if they represent ,as has been suggested ,  court cairns , where can we find a line of 17 with another 7 in the area as depicted on Knowth K53  ,but then again in this case they are said by some to represent "days " , in which case maybe the Moth example really means a lost ? week end .

George

[davidjones]

davidjones, on 31 December 2008, 3:22, said:

“the landscape setting of many carvings does provide a few clues. Recent research suggests that many are associated with the fringes of uplands and with important paths of access between lower and higher ground. On occasion, they seem to line the route towards important monument complexes. This is by no means a black and white pattern, but the tendency for carvings to be located in this way suggests that some at least were in places that were visited from time to time by people on the move.” GardWeb


If you have noticed my more muted debate next door about chun castle ,quoit and pendeen carn this carving is on the pendeen carn lower peek and twenty feet from the groove that I've shown , a common used walkway even today. Rory who I mentioned in my comments has beliefs relating to it being a plan of either the area or a site on the hill. I'm glad you are all not in the same room it might end in a blood bath and all the people who new how to build the relevant tomb would be lost!

Now I was convinced when I saw this rock carving that it was a game board for bored lookouts on sentry duty playing fox and geese it all looked so obvious to me. Until this spring when a further visit to the area presented me with an exact copy in a local church in st Just . The half finished celtic cross shaft mounted into the wall of the church. My point being keep a very open mind no matter how convinced you are !

Attached Files

•  st_just_church.jpg   91.74K   5 downloads
•  pendeen_carn.jpg   118.47K   5 downloads

[Pete G]

a fantastic piece of detective work there David,
well done,
PeteG

[seanachai]

The following is an update on the progress to confirm my hypothesis regarding the symbols found on Orthostat L2 within the Mound of the Hostages at Tara.

Though the lidar and magnetic gradiometry images used to support my research, should have been sufficient enough to convince the Irish archaeologists whom I’ve corresponded with over the past three (3) years, that the matter warranted further investigation, this proved not to be the case.  As such, I contacted the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) requesting their assistance in mapping the subsurface features of Tara.  While they were unable to do so, the head of the department did respond with the following:

“Your idea that the orthostat is an early map of Tara is very interesting and certainly looks to me as if the features [symbols] line up with the terrain visible in the lidar image[s] and aerial photos.”

“Let me give you some idea of my background. I am an expert in mapping radar systems, of some 27 years experience.  One of my interests over the years has been radar archaeology, and while I am not an archaeologist, I have worked with a couple in the past.”

“For the radar, we do have an airborne capability at JPL, but no near-term plans to deploy it to Europe (in which case it would be easy to tack on some flights over Co. Meath).  But, JPL developed an interferometric radar called GeoSAR a few years ago, which has the sort of characteristics I think you need, and is now operated by a commercial company.”

At NASA’s suggestion, I submitted a proposal to the aforementioned geosciences firm, and received the following from their Chief Operating Officer (COO).

“First, my apologies for the delayed response as I needed a little time to check into the facts of the matter before getting back to you. Also, let me say that I appreciate your interest in Tara and your endeavours to have its historic importance recognised by UNESCO so as to preserve this site for future generations."

"Our recommendation would be that you contact the appropriate agencies in Ireland such as the Department of Environment, Heritage and Local Government, or the Department of Communication and Natural Resources or the Office of Public Works, to see if one or more of these agencies would be prepared to take the lead in undertaking a geophysical survey at Tara. If there is a willingness by one or more Irish Government agency to undertake further surveys at Tara, [we] would be willing to contribute to the preparation of a survey specification document and may be in a position to contribute to the actual survey work itself."

While waiting to hear back from some of the government agencies in Ireland, I decided to apply what I’d learned from my Tara paper, to the symbols on the two panels of Orthostat 8, Site 14, Knowth. Upon completing this second paper, ‘Petroglyphs, the Bend in the Boyne’, I submitted both to Dr. George Nash, a preeminent Prehistoric rock art specialist.  Following is his initial response.

Dated: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 00:28:41 +0100 (BST)

“Many thanks for the email.  I must admit that I have already read one of your papers and am convinced of what you are saying holds water.  I am in Romania at the moment, but on my return I will read through both.  I do have a little bit of influence and know of the Tara situation well and the anger from locals and visitors alike. I will make contact within the next week.”  

That said, should any members or guests to this website, who happen to be archaeologists or anthropologists, that have any influence within their respective communities and/or the media, please contact me through the email link at the end of the article.

Orthostat, the Mound of the Hostages

(see also)

Petroglyphs, the Bend in the Boyne

[seanachai]

Following are the links to three articles I wrote, which are posted on Indymedia Ireland & Indymedia UK.  The first one, 'Of Cups, Rings and Cultural Heritage' was edited by Dr. George Nash, University of Bristol.

PDF's of both research papers discussed in the articles can downloaded at:

Orthostat, the Mound of the Hostages

Petroglyphs, the Bend in the Boyne

Both papers have been "academicized" as Dr. Nash would put it, with new images & text added, the images now being interspersed with the text.

Indymedia Ireland Links:

Of Cups, Rings and Cultural Heritage

Cultural Heritage and the Economy

The EU & UNESCO: Endangering Our Heritage

Indymedia UK Links:

Of Cups, Rings and Cultural Heritage

Cultural Heritage and the Economy

The EU & UNESCO: Endangering Our Heritage

[tiompan]

One would imagine that  anyone unleashing an essay into the public domain on the relationship between rock art motifs and landscape would have a basic awareness of the names and siting of motifs mentioned in their efforts . It would be less important  yet still remiss for an author to be unaware of the siting of a rock mentioned in their text  if the theory was concerned with something like the arrangement of motifs but when it involves  a supposed direct relationship between motifs and  the landscape, knowledge of the site and surrounding environment is critical .
Even contenious works particularly when”acadamised”  would be expected to provide accreditation and knowledge of exemplars , this is a minor point but there are other reasons for mentioning it , which may become clear later . To discuss the problems about  the rest of text  would take up too much time .

  George

[tiompan]

The main reason I was interested in the pic from p . 62 of the “Petroglyphs , the bend in the Boyne “ described as a domino motif and supposedly portraying a group of barrows is that it is a pic of a marked rock I discovered in 2005 and the pic is also my pic , albeit cropped . I don’t really mind  people using my pics , (I’m not professional and the pics are not very good ) and not being credited but one might expect being asked at least . In this case it is different , the material of the essay is so contentious and fantastical it is embarrassing to be associated with it .It is clear that author doesn’t know where the rock is situated and more importantly doesn’t realise that there are no barrows that can be seen from the rock never mind a group of five , yet this is supposedly an exemplar of that form of signification . The markings do have some genuine points of interest apart from the obvious .They are small cups which are  not common in the area but there are others quite close by and some other groups in the same county . Two slightly more contentious points but certainly provable are , a line of three of the cups are aligned due north ,which may be entirely coincidental and the site of the rock is one where a sun roll can be observed down a nearby prominent hill once again probably coincidental  but compared with the essay where the pic was taken from at least it’s true .

George

[seanachai]

George,

The image in question, along with the drawing, was emailed to me by someone asking what I thought the 'domino' configuration was, and yes I do feel it represents a group of mounds, whether they're still visible in the landscape or not, which is an issue Dr. George Nash clarified when he edited my 1st article, 'Of Cups, Rings and Cultural Heritage'.

"Though many of the monuments within the Tara and Boyne complexes are still visible in the landscape, there are hundreds of sites where nothing can be seen, except for the panels that exhibit this enigmatic art. The spatial distribution of motifs at, say, the Mound of Hostages on the Hill of Tara, or on the stones at Knowth, is a way of drawing in the wider ritual landscape within, creating for the monumentʼs users and their ancestors, a way of connecting the physical landscape, with the realm of the dead."

"With the advent of geo-prospecting technology, and using the probable cartographic information on the panels, undiscovered sites and monuments beckon. If and when they are excavated, the artifacts and remains they yield, will shed fresh light on who constructed them, their age and chronology, all of which will open a new chapter in their history."

Now, if you take issue with that, and you feel you're more qualified to speak on the subject than Dr. Nash, or any other experts I've cited, then by all means email them.  It'll take you two seconds to Google their addresses.

Regarding the issue of copyright info or not asking your permission, there was no copyright info on the image, nor any mention of where the image came from or where the stone is located. That said, I do not have the time to search the millions of images on the web to locate a photo and copyright info. If you want people to know who took that image or any others, then I'd suggest adding it next time, just like Michael Fox does with images of his on Knowth.com or Brian Kerr. Every image that I used in my papers, I made a diligent effort to determine the copyright info, and in many cases enlarged the info so it could be read.

That being said, since you're "embarrassed" to have an image of your associated with my "essay" it has been removed, and a edited copy of the PDF sent to Michael Fox, which he'll have up in a day or two.

As for any other points in your posts, I have no intention of addressing them. All you ever do is criticize people, whether it's me or other posters, and I have neither the time nor the inclination to deal with people like that.  Opinions mean nothing, if you can't back them up with evidence.  That's how science works. Having said that, let me leave you with the following quotes to ponder.

“There are in fact two things, science and opinion; the former begets knowledge, the latter ignorance.” Hippocrates

George Bernard Shaw once said, “He who can, does. He who cannot, teaches.”  It should read, “He who can, does. He who cannot, criticizes those who can.”

"If mankind never questioned the status quo, then we'd still think the earth was flat."

Sean

[tiompan]

Sean , Someone sends you a pic you don’t enquire where the pic came from ,where the stone was sited ,it’s name , is it the entire group of markings , anything else similar in the area  ,what the landscape setting might be  yet you “feel” that it represents mounds ,  the more specific “barrows “ was actually the term used originally ,and that is enough for you to include in your essay , that is clearly pure fantasy , not even an opinion never mind science ,and you have the nerve to say that “Opinions mean nothing, if you can't back them up with evidence. That's how science works.” True , now where is your evidence for your fantastical belief  about the markings representing barrows ?
What a scientist would do is note that if  the markings resembled real barrows in the landscape ,not their imagination ,and then try to find other examples elsewhere as well as attempting to disprove the idea .
Much  of your “explanation “ is quotes from others that have nothing to do with the matter at hand ..The first part of the George Nash quote is opinion and unfalsifiable and I  can think of other interpretations that are more likely and more importantly also falsifiable  , the second says nothing that most would disagree with and neither say anything about the your belief about the markings .
It is clear that you do not appreciate that that in rock art studies the real experts are not self –proclaimed academics but the amateur , independent researcher found in every region where rock art is to be found ,they are the ones who actually know the markings and discover them  ,the academics know this too as does anyone involved in the study . In Ireland and France it is slightly different as so much of the most interesting rock art is not in the open air but in passage tombs and caves that are not as accessible as open air sites . Consequently academics do have better opportunities for studying them , in this case the experts are people like George Eogan ,Elisabeth Shee-Twohig and latterly Guillaume Robin ,an endorsement from any of those would be a coup but I won’t hold my breath .

Two more of your quotes .
“There are in fact two things, science and opinion; the former begets knowledge, the latter ignorance.” Hippocrates

George Bernard Shaw once said, “He who can, does. He who cannot, teaches.” It should read, “He who can, does. He who cannot, criticizes those who can.”

What I “do” is scientific , I discover and record previously unrecorded rock art motifs providing a ten figure grid reference , measurement of the motifs , photographs of the motifs and the landscape setting they are found  ,if there are any other notable points about the stones these are included e.g. in the case of the markings you were used there are pics of a compass showing that three of the cups are aligned N-S  and another three on the same surface are aligned E-W  , ( another point that you were unaware of which your anonymous sender didn’t mention is that there are more markings on the rock ,there being a totral of 17 cups ) and afurther data on the how the declination of the sun and angle of set mirrors a prominent hill as seen from the markings .the details of hundreds of similar examples are available on a public database and on request from me , as a contrast I don’t concoct whimsy about them .
As I had said I am not bothered about copyright and wasn’t really that bothered about you not asking permission on a pretty duff wee pic , but I wouldn’t like to think anyone thought that I endorsed any of your views . Interesting to see see that heraldry has been introduced , which is obviously something different  from maps and clearly related in some circumstances to some examples of rock art .
What I can provide is evidence something that you singularly were unable to do by your decision to “feel” that the markings represent something that suited your purpose ., if there is something I have said that requires evidence to support  it , ask for it .
Bad science  is  why you get criticised , and not only by me . Find some rock art ,find some connection between the motifs that is valid and you will be congratulated .

George