15 replies to this topic

[sam]

Hi all...can any1 shed some light onto the correct ID of this knife please...its titled meso but im sure its Bronze age myself?

Rgds Sam.

http://i145.photobuc...ningexample.jpg

http://i145.photobuc...xampleobver.jpg

[Blaiddwen]

sam, on 1 May 2008, 22:18, said:

Hi all...can any1 shed some light onto the correct ID of this knife please...its titled meso but im sure its Bronze age myself?

Rgds Sam.

http://i145.photobuc...ningexample.jpg

http://i145.photobuc...xampleobver.jpg

HI. sam I would have thought that a bronze age artefact would be made of bronze, so it may be much older.

[Maju]

Not necessarily all Bronze Age was made of that metal (and that is even more true for the Chalcolithic and copper), because the implementation of metallurgy was gradual and metal was probably somewhat expensive or hard to find at times.

But, anyhow, that stone tool looks anything but modern. Mesolithic with all likehood. Beautiful but too rustic to compare with anything made from the Epipaleolithic onwards. And also in relation with Upper Paleolithic it seems very rudimentary. Apart of that, one key element is the bifacial work on full stone (not a UP blade) and the very large and unretouched flaking can't be any time recent.

Compare with:

a) Aurignacian blade scrapper (your "knife" is probably a scrapper too)

Solutrean blades and points

c) Epipaleolithic arrow point - less than one cm wide: microlithism was the rule since then for most objects

d) More Epipaleo-/Neolithic microliths...

So, yes, most likely Meso...

[sam]

Hi Maju & thanks for the reply...& yes thats right regarding the Bronze age material being varied & not just Bronze...flint & stone tools were used right up to the early medieval period believe it or not ...ok not in the same contaxt as lithic usage but never the less    ...i also have a few more pieces found recently if you wouldn't mind offering help regarding their correct era, usage etc  

Sam

http://i160.photobuc.../Picture607.jpg
http://i160.photobuc.../Picture609.jpg
http://i160.photobuc.../Picture610.jpg
http://i160.photobuc.../Picture611.jpg



http://i160.photobuc.../Picture649.jpg

http://i160.photobuc.../Picture657.jpg

http://i160.photobuc.../Picture656.jpg

http://i160.photobuc.../Picture654.jpg

http://i160.photobuc.../Picture650.jpg

http://i160.photobuc.../Picture646.jpg

http://i160.photobuc.../Picture645.jpg

http://i160.photobuc.../Picture635.jpg

http://i160.photobuc.../Picture639.jpg

http://i160.photobuc.../Picture637.jpg

http://i160.photobuc.../Picture625.jpg

[sam]

& here are a few more clearer? views of the knife & a really nice thumb scraper...era needed for this 1 please  


http://i160.photobuc.../Picture690.jpg
http://i160.photobuc.../Picture689.jpg
http://i160.photobuc.../Picture688.jpg
http://i160.photobuc.../Picture687.jpg
http://i160.photobuc.../Picture686.jpg



http://i160.photobuc.../Picture691.jpg
http://i160.photobuc.../Picture692.jpg
http://i160.photobuc.../Picture693.jpg

...i have more if you dont mind giving opinions on them  

Cheers Sam  

[Maju]

I could not link with most of your pics. What I saw looks microlithic (Epipaleo-, Neo- or post-Neolithic) because of the size (except maybe the first one that gave me an Aurignacian feeling). But I am not any expert anyhow.

How did you get so many archaeological pieces and why don't you give them to a museum? This is not like art of candy, you know: it's information about our history.

[sam]

I have so many because i pick them up while hunting....rather than let them disapear for ever when the land is built on i collect to show....& i do donate many pieces yearly to my local museum but due to them having so many better examples already thay lack the space to house any more...& i am a member of the PAS with alot of experience regarding finds etc...these are of no interest to any major body and are only suitable to finders & collectors alike.

[Maju]

Ok. I didn't know they were so overabundant. As you describe it, it would seem they are all around, scattered like gravel - and I would rather expect them to be underground in an archaeological context.

Which country/region are they from?

[sam]

Hi maju, all found on Northanptonshire UK....yes the vast majority are scattered surface finds, a few are found while digging targets but yes 99% are surface finds    ....this land is due for development in the not so far distant future & all will be gone for good when it starts so my theory is collect as many as possibly as opposed to allow them to just disapear under a new housing estate.

Sam

[Maju]

What can I say? Well done.

It's really a pity that no scientifical authorities are putting any interest in those artifacts. The site could well be some ancient settlement.

As said before, due to their microlithic size and style, I'd say Epipaleolithic or Neolithic, which I fear is not such a well researched period in the UK (though you may know better). Not being any expert and just from comparison with my manual of Spanish prehistory they resemble very much the microliths I can see for the Epipaleolithic (though I know these traditions continued in the Neolithic anyhow). I guess they could be Sauveterrean-Tardenoisian artifacts or of some other related culture (all them believed to be ultimately of Magdalenian roots).

After a quick search, a handful of sites with images and some information to compare with:

- Generic site on common microlith typology
- Huddersfeld (Yorkshire) site on Tardenois/Azilian microliths
- Epipaleolithic flint tools from Nosterfield quarry
- A site with images of Tardenoisian "transverse arrowheads" (trapezes)
- A Portuguese site with some microlith images

And a drawing of Azilian tools of Northern Spain (notice that Azilians still used Magdalenian-like proto-harpoons):




Hope they are of some use.

[Pete G]

sam, on 14 May 2008, 8:01, said:

Hi maju, all found on Northanptonshire UK....yes the vast majority are scattered surface finds, a few are found while digging targets but yes 99% are surface finds    ....this land is due for development in the not so far distant future & all will be gone for good when it starts so my theory is collect as many as possibly as opposed to allow them to just disapear under a new housing estate.

Sam

Hi Sam,
you have a very good collection there and some fine specimens.
Collect as many as you can before the heavy machinery moves in.
Once they start to move large amounts of earth do check the spoil heaps.
I have found some of my best flints in spoil heaps!
Good luck,
PeteG

[sam]

Hi Pete...yes spoil heaps are like Gold mines for lithics ...i regularly search 3 25ft high heaps & find Dozens litterally in just a few hours....Maju, yes it is a shame government bodies cant find the space required to house all lithics found, but from the finest knapped Axe down to the smallest thumb scraper there are Thousands & Thousands of lithics out here....staring at you in the face but you just cant pick them all up....i made that mistake a few times in the past...went out hunting (with machine) & after 2 hours had over 200 fine lithics weighing me down so much i came home...only had 2 signals although both nice hammered Silvers, i just couldn't walk any longer due to the weight of the lithics.....Mesolithic settlements are every where here....stretching for miles & miles along the Nene Valley...but like i say, i cant stand bye & watch such beautiful art be smashed & buried for ever by huge machines...but then again i cant pick them all up either so i tend to just leave the nice pieces & collect the exceptional Ones...(i know some of my pics only show nices but these are when i was bringing them home in abundance)

Sam

[Pete G]

Hi Sam,
keep up the good work!
If you don't do it no one else will.

I used to pick up everything I found around Avebury now I leave most and just pick up anything exceptional.
PeteG

[sam]

...my sentiments exactly peteG thank you.....Archaeologists & similar authority bodies are aware of what lies beneath our feet as it were, they have records spanning centuries regarding land structures past & present....its as important to me as a hunter to work along side these guys when i find anything of interest so it can be recorded & logged etc....& i can appreciate when they state their disliking to lithics being taken out of context for profit sales etc....what would they prefer if actually came down to deciding a lithic's destiny?...agreeing to bury it for ever so no1 can view it of find & sell it?...or seeing an item in all its glory due to a hunter saving it... i think the latter myself but some of these guys are a tad strange when it comes to agreeing with hunters....i will continue collecting the finer examples when i come across them, like Pete, leaving the "nice" 1ns alone due to being so many & just concentrate on the "exceptional" 1ns which would only disapear for ever unless i pick it up!...my total is in excess of 20,000 odd pieces now...roughly 1 Ton & 19 Kilo's at last weigh in    .....dont even ask!

[severus]

Hi Sam

Just had a look at your lithics. i am in very little doubt that they are at least paeleo or meso lithic. the first picture looks like a paeleolithic hand axe and you seem to have some blanks, some debitage and what looks like a small backed blade. some of the pictures appear to have been deleted. as has been noted before the context is all important. i have worked in on neolithic and mesolithic projects before and have worked in the museums and know that there can have far too many lithics than they are capable or willing to deal with but if these items are all being found in one small area then it would appear to be a site of some significance. if you cannot find someone to become interested in the finds then i would ask you pleas to make as complete a record of the site that you can. such as geography, co-ordinates, topography, landscape, photographs, drawings etc... if someone became interested in a site like this it may even be possible to shut down the construction until the site has been properly surveyed and excavated. that after all is the role of archaeology; to gather the info when and if you can. if the site is meolithic then it is of national importance as there are very few of them, if the site is paeleolithic then it is of global importance as there are even fewer of them.
if you are working on your own, get some help.