7 replies to this topic

[Earth Healer1]

Hi All
New here with one basic question. What is the purpose of a Henge. Forget about  stones etc just concentrate on one thing the Henge.

[kevin.b]

Earth Healer1, on 23 June 2008, 17:59, said:

Hi All
New here with one basic question. What is the purpose of a Henge. Forget about  stones etc just concentrate on one thing the Henge.

Welcome,
               The answer I would give will be my opinion, but will only be given in the alternative section of this forum, at the request of the owner, any alternative thoughts are to be kept there.
Kevin

If you have alternative ideas about Henges then by all means start a thread in the Althernative Theories section and if anyone wants to talk to you about it they can join in.
Admin

[Earth Healer1]

Earth Healer1, on 23 June 2008, 16:59, said:

Hi All
New here with one basic question. What is the purpose of a Henge. Forget about  stones etc just concentrate on one thing the Henge.

Sorry All for posting in wrong place, Only wondered if i could find anyone with a science background who knew the scientific answer. Didnt reallt want opinion or theory. but you have to kiss a lot of frogs to find a prince in shining armour. and travel many roads.

[Maju]

It's a very good question, Earth Healer1, but the answer is probably not easy.

I made an incursion on the issue in a previous post but it's not enough I guess.

They mostly seem to either burial grounds, sort of temples or shrines (often related to astronomy) or all of that together. But they or similar things seem to have been around in diferent cultural contexts for quite a while during Neolithic and beyond, even as late as the Iron Age when typical Megalithism (dolmen) had vanished.

In the particular case of Basque/Pyrenean cromlechs ("cromlech" is how stone rings or henges are known in most of continental Europe) or harrezpiloak (lit.: stone circles) these are:

• Of a late period: Iron Age
  
• Cremation burial grounds: single burials (maybe of a holy person or a political leader?)
  
• Small, too much to be of astronomical use probably
  
• Mythologically attributed to a special mythical race known as the Mairu (also Intxisu in one location)
  
• Historically documented as place of community assemblies. The assemblies happened besides the local cromlech not in it

[Edit: from a link mentioned by Diego elsewhere: Xabier Pelalver, leading Basque prehistorian, thinks that the presence of the cromlechs only east of Leitzaran (roughly the modern Navarrese-Gipuzkoan border), strongly suggest that these were a restricted to the tribe of the Vascones, while the tribes west of them did not follow this cultural practice]

One of the earliest occurences of cromlech (with burial) was among the Boleraz culture, that, in my understanding, revitalized the Danubian (Lineal Pottery) cultures of the Middle Danub after the first Indoeuropean (Kurgan) incursions, forging the subsequent Baden culture that was hegemonic in Central Europe for some five centuries before being indoeuropeanized (Vucedol culture).

Boleraz people buried the cremated remains of their dead in small stone rings similar to the later Basque ones but, unlike the Pyrenean cromlechs, they buried them with these objects: a jar, a cup, stone axes and shell ornaments. But Boleraz is not older than Stonhenge (similar age: and possibly other western rings may be even older) so I would consider a western (British?) origin for this design. But certainly Danubians had a much older traditions of the rondels (see the link above) that are as old as the Neolithic of Central Europe and may have inspired ultimately the stone rings.

In any case it would seem to me that typical Megalisthism (dolmens, with their clannic "collective" burials, also found in non-dolmenic areas) is partly distinct from other monumental styles such as stone rings (or tholoi, or artificial caves, or even standing stones, known as "menhirs" in much of the continent). I guess we could talk of nuclear megalithism, meaning dolmens and collective burial (maybe "dolmenism" could be a better term?), and elaborate megalithism or neomegalithism that takes different forms (one of them being henges) and is partly (but not totally) unrelated.

One of the (apparently common) characteristic of henges everywhere (correct me if I'm wrong in this) seems to be cremation. This funerary style is almost (see below) unheard of in Europe before the cromlechs make their appearence. I suspect this issue has not been pondered with sufficient interest.

"Dolmenism" and other less monumental burial styles of Western Europe typically deposited the dead like we (mostly) do now: in supine position, Central Europeans (including the cosmopolitan Bell Beaker group later on) and Balcanics did it in foetal position typically (and I think this was also the case often in Eastern Europe) but cremation was rather rare.

The oldest cremation practices I know of in Europe date of the diversification of the Danubian Neolithic (Western Lineal Pottery culture). In this period the northern facies (Bohemia, Poland) practiced cremation extensively, while the western facies (Germany, northern France) adopted the extended supine position for burial (both replacing the earlier tradition of foetal position). Later these groups would be absorbed by the nuclear Danubians of the Lengyel culture (origin at the middle Danub), who practiced the traditional foetal individual burial. Cremation only reappears AFAIK many centuries later with the various henges, as mentioned above. Later also, in the late Bronze and early iron Age, the Urnfields culture (proto-Celts and other Indoeuropeans from Central Europe) would also practice cremation (individual, large necropolis), influencing Etruscans in this aspect for a while, for instance.

Hope this helps. It's a good question indeed.

[Maju]

I forgot about something really important: Nabta Playa henge in southern Egypt. It is radiocarbon dated to c. 3500 BCE, what makes it apparently the oldest henge on Earth. It is older than Boleraz and Stonehenge certainly. Does anybody know of an older henge elsewhere?



The site seems to be of astronomical function and AFAIK had no burials of any kind.

[FourWinds]

Maju, on 6 July 2008, 0:33, said:

I forgot about something really important: Nabta Playa henge in southern Egypt. It is radiocarbon dated to c. 3500 BCE, what makes it apparently the oldest henge on Earth. It is older than Boleraz and Stonehenge certainly. Does anybody know of an older henge elsewhere?



The site seems to be of astronomical function and AFAIK had no burials of any kind.

A henge does not have any stone content. They are circular earth-banked enclosures, such as Durrington Walls near Stonehenge. However, 3500 bce is old for a stone circle!

[kevin.b]

Maju,
       I enjoyed your posts , but have to agree with four winds.
The word henge is confusing, and Earth Healer I am sure will have meant the ditch and embankment type, which are often called hill forts.
I am also certain that an electrical basis is what earth healer was after, and is the resason I suggested opening another thread in the alternative section.
I will do this when Earth healer is available again, I believe he is in the North of England for a month.
Instead of all the usual burial or alignment theories, contemplate an electrical reason for the henges, especially the potential difference in height, hence the hill top locations.
I asure you it is one of the reasons that a hill is a hill, and the valley base is that.
I know this is totally outside of any accepted understanding, but I am positive and negative it will be shown to be their origonal design criteria, they may have become many things later, but they are still operating as per design.
Keep in mind the vitrification in particuler, and the route up and down between two potentials.
Kevin

[Maju]

Surely my bad, sorry. I was persuaded that henge meant stone ring/circle, like in Stonehenge, not round dicthes and banks, like in the continental Danubian rondels.

It's a linguistic issue. I have also been reprehended before in this forum for using the term cromlech for stone circle, so it's not surprising, I guess, that I was thinking henge meant also stone circle in English.

In this thread I was all the time (or almost) talking about stone circles but in the other one I was following an original English article that dealt more with earth structures like rondels (henges, I stay corrected). That article said:

From the middle Bronze Age, 'imitations' of rondels begin to appear - simple stone circles known as 'henges' in England

Hence my confussion, it seems. The author, who has a Central European surname anyhow (possibly Polish), defines henges as stone circles, not as rondels. Probably that was partly the origin of my terminological confussion.

Circular ditched/banked enclosures (rondels, or henges according to you as well as Wikipedia - now I realize) are AFAIK of apparent Danubian (Central European) origin (though maybe there is something older elsewhere). That other thread was written to explore that issue specifically. They may have an astronomical intention as well but it's not as clear as in the stone circles. While burial may happen occasionally in some of the ditches, I think cremation is rare or just does not happen at all (taling about the continent, not sure about Britain).

Wikipedia suggests that they are primarily ritual enclosures and that's what I read about continental rondels some years ago as well. Some have suggested other functions, even corrals for cattle, but I think that's unlikely.

...

However, 3500 bce is old for a stone circle!

That's why I thought it was worth mentioning. AFAIK it's the oldest of its kind anywhere. The culture that built it is even older (6th milennium BCE) and may have influenced ancient Egypt (or be influenced by its ill-known riverine direct precursors).

...

The word henge is confusing...

Thanks goodness I'm not the only one confused.