4 replies to this topic

[Robert Henvell]

AMBER

Amber can sustain transport costs over thousands of  kilometers
in a raw or finished state,because it is a small,high value comm-
modity[k].Although there are amber sources in southern Europe
,analyses of amber from Greece,”Yugoslavia”,and Italy indicates
that the Baltic was the primary source.Quaternary ice sheets may
have dispersed amber around the Baltic during the Tertiary [h]
[equivocal].
There was no copper or tin in Denmark.To participate in the
Bronze Age,Nordic people ceased to use amber as grave gifts
and exported it to obtain metals.Wessex exchanged metal axes
for amber from Denmark ca 1950-1700 BCE, [k].A rich inhum-
ation at Mold in northern Wales contained 200-300 amber
beads.The Hove barrow in England yielded the famous amber
cup [h].
Improvements in Carpathian metal production ca 1700/1750
BCE created new exchange networks along the Danube River,
Black Sea coast,etc.Amber appears in burials and hoards [eg.
Barca].This represents the first phase,when significant
quantities of amber reached the eastern Mediterranean.Post
1500 BCE amber was channeled through the expanding
Tumulus culture of south Germany,which linkedScandinavia
to the central Mediterranean,as the Ottomani culture declined,
[k].
There was an increase in amber jewellery during the Urnfield
period.Italy began to receive quantities of amber during the
late Urnfield era and it was extensively worked at Frattesina
near the mouth of the Po River.There appears to have been a
specific connection between southern Greece and southern
England,because the so called amber spacer plates of both
areas were fashioned identically.Spacers in France and
Germany,even when similar in design,were utilized in
different ways,[h].Amber was a prized commodity among
the Mycecaean people.Hence strong relations were forged
between the Mycenaean and the Nordic elites

Europe Societies of the Bronze Age,A F Harding,2000,UCP.
[h]
The Rise of Bronze Age Society,K Kristiansen and T Larsson
,2005,UCP.
[k]

[Maju]

Amber, primarily from the Baltic, was also exported via the Atlantic. AFAIK this was its first important internatonal route that reached as far as Portugal and maybe beyond to North Africa. The presence of long distance imported precious commodities such as amber from the Baltic and ivory and ostrich eggshells from North Africa is one of the characteristics of Iberian Chalcolithic beginning c. 3000 BCE.

Amber was a prized commodity among
the Mycecaean people.Hence strong relations were forged
between the Mycenaean and the Nordic elites

Can you justify that affirmation? AFAIK it's nearly impossible that the Mycenaeans had any direct relation with the Nordics of that time. They may have imported amber via Central or Eastern Europe but I'm as certain as one can be that neither of those peoples ever traded directly with each other. They were as unknown to each other or almost as Chinese and Romans were to each other, in spite of the Silk Road.

In fact the closest to a description of any far northern peoples we find in Greek classical literature is the vague reference to the Hyperboreans, which probably refers to Celts, as they are said to venerate Apollo, close to Celtic Lug but not to any Nordic deity I can think of. In fact the Tummulus culture you mention (I don't think they were expansive actually but maybe I'm missing something) is thought to be proto-Celtic (as well as maybe proto-Illyrian and proto-Italic). In any case it cannot be called "Nordic", as it extended through southern Germany, Switzerland, Austria and the Czech Republic (this is more like Central Europe).

May I ask you: Tummuli culture was not present in the Mediterranean coasts and it's not likely that the Greeks ventured in the interior. Who acted as intermediary?

[Robert Henvell]

Maju, on 10 July 2008, 1:08, said:

Amber, primarily from the Baltic, was also exported via the Atlantic. AFAIK this was its first important internatonal route that reached as far as Portugal and maybe beyond to North Africa. The presence of long distance imported precious commodities such as amber from the Baltic and ivory and ostrich eggshells from North Africa is one of the characteristics of Iberian Chalcolithic beginning c. 3000 BCE.

Amber was a prized commodity among
the Mycecaean people.Hence strong relations were forged
between the Mycenaean and the Nordic elites

Can you justify that affirmation? AFAIK it's nearly impossible that the Mycenaeans had any direct relation with the Nordics of that time. They may have imported amber via Central or Eastern Europe but I'm as certain as one can be that neither of those peoples ever traded directly with each other. They were as unknown to each other or almost as Chinese and Romans were to each other, in spite of the Silk Road.

In fact the closest to a description of any far northern peoples we find in Greek classical literature is the vague reference to the Hyperboreans, which probably refers to Celts, as they are said to venerate Apollo, close to Celtic Lug but not to any Nordic deity I can think of. In fact the Tummulus culture you mention (I don't think they were expansive actually but maybe I'm missing something) is thought to be proto-Celtic (as well as maybe proto-Illyrian and proto-Italic). In any case it cannot be called "Nordic", as it extended through southern Germany, Switzerland, Austria and the Czech Republic (this is more like Central Europe).

May I ask you: Tummuli culture was not present in the Mediterranean coasts and it's not likely that the Greeks ventured in the interior. Who acted as intermediary?

My comments on amber are based on the two texts that have been listed as references.Nordic warriors fought as mercenaries and traveled over long distances.It was the practice among elite societies to exchange their children during the Bronze Age.There are Mycenaean type artifacts in megalith burials in Denmark.There were undoubtedly numerous intermediates along the trade routes.
However genetic studies have revealed that people from Scandinavia,Poland and northern Germany migrated to Macedonia during the cold dry ca 2200-1900/1800 era.This would have established a link between  the Nordic and Macedonian people.The 2005 text that I have quoted stresses the mobility of Bronze Age people.It is worth a read.

[Maju]

Quote

However genetic studies have revealed that people from Scandinavia,Poland and northern Germany migrated to Macedonia during the cold dry ca 2200-1900/1800 era.

Really? I am pretty familiar with 21st century genetics and read avidly everything I can get hold of in this field. And, sincerely, I cannot remember any such study.

Can you pinpoint to which research paper you are refering to? Sorry for asking so many questions but I can't but feel that part is nothing but a Nordicist fantasy. The very language is pretty suggestive of that kind of fantasy, of unscientific imagery.

On the rest:

Quote

Nordic warriors fought as mercenaries and traveled over long distances.

This is a pretty generic claim that looks suspiciously imprecise, to say the least. We know that La Tène Celts did that (but not through distances comparable to Denmark-Greece in any case but more like maybe Paris-Rome at most, and more commonly like Vienna-Milano distances) and it's possible (but undocumented AFAIK) that Tummuli culture warriors did it at a smaller scale before. The term Nordic in itself looks calculatedly ambiguous to allow nearly anything to be included in it as well.

Quote

It was the practice among elite societies to exchange their children during the Bronze Age.

Was it? AFAIK such practice is called "taking hostages". It makes no sense anyhow that cultures that had no direct contact among them like Greeks and proto-Germanics (your "Nordics", I guess) exchanged anything at all. If there are Mycenean findings in Denmark, they must have arrived by mediation of other peoples.

[Robert Henvell]

Maju, on 11 July 2008, 4:59, said:

Quote

However genetic studies have revealed that people from Scandinavia,Poland and northern Germany migrated to Macedonia during the cold dry ca 2200-1900/1800 era.

Really? I am pretty familiar with 21st century genetics and read avidly everything I can get hold of in this field. And, sincerely, I cannot remember any such study.

Try Philip Dietiker,2006!
Can you pinpoint to which research paper you are refering to? Sorry for asking so many questions but I can't but feel that part is nothing but a Nordicist fantasy. The very language is pretty suggestive of that kind of fantasy, of unscientific imagery.

On the rest:

Quote

Nordic warriors fought as mercenaries and traveled over long distances.

This is a pretty generic claim that looks suspiciously imprecise, to say the least. We know that La Tène Celts did that (but not through distances comparable to Denmark-Greece in any case but more like maybe Paris-Rome at most, and more commonly like Vienna-Milano distances) and it's possible (but undocumented AFAIK) that Tummuli culture warriors did it at a smaller scale before.
The term Nordic in itself looks calculatedly ambiguous to allow nearly anything to be included in it as well.
Read the second reference that I have quoted it will resolve all of your

Quote

It was the practice among elite societies to exchange their children during the Bronze Age.

Was it? AFAIK such practice is called "taking hostages". It makes no sense anyhow that cultures that had no direct contact among them like Greeks and proto-Germanics (your "Nordics", I guess) exchanged anything at all. If there are Mycenean findings in Denmark, they must have arrived by mediation of other peoples.

Read the second reference text that I have cited,it will provide the answers to your questions.