40 replies to this topic

[davidjones]

Just over a year ago I wrote about a possible east west alignment between chun castle ,chun quoit and the carn above pendeen. Since then I have been back for two equinoxes . This has shown that the alignment for east west is 4 days before the equinox in the spring and 4 days after in the autumn. I believe this is a reasonabley valid observation for if as an early civilization you have the sun setting as far north as possible, summer solstice and winter solstice is as far south(marked by its decent between kenidjack carn from chun quoit) a true east west alignment would be an natural  split ? Although I did not get the horizon shot I wanted the multiple shots taken with the aid of my son and companion in this venture -Ben meant that we could predict its final position. Other factors relevant are that equinox is defined as an equal day from mid sun to mid sun on equal horizons  . In this case the sun rises overland and sets in the sea and would be more likely be when the top of the sun breaks the horizon and when the dying rays of the sun leave both having an effect on the equal split of a day .would this have implications at stone henge?
The area around pendeen has many remnants of circles menhirs and of course Men An Tol the famous holed stone which appears to have a very strong allignment of its own if google earth is to be believed. I think another trip is in order ! My images of the allignment are on the megalithic portal. my login is pebbletripper or to find my equinox picture type in chun castle / chun quoit allignment into google. p.s. I think maybe just maybe the gate stones and pointer stone at chun castle might be remnants of an earlier ring ? What say you guys?

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[tiompan]

davidjones, on 23 December 2008, 8:09, said:

Just over a year ago I wrote about a possible east west alignment between chun castle ,chun quoit and the carn above pendeen. Since then I have been back for two equinoxes . This has shown that the alignment for east west is 4 days before the equinox in the spring and 4 days after in the autumn. I believe this is a reasonabley valid observation for if as an early civilization you have the sun setting as far north as possible, summer solstice and winter solstice is as far south(marked by its decent between kenidjack carn from chun quoit) a true east west alignment would be an natural  split ? Although I did not get the horizon shot I wanted the multiple shots taken with the aid of my son and companion in this venture -Ben meant that we could predict its final position. Other factors relevant are that equinox is defined as an equal day from mid sun to mid sun on equal horizons  . In this case the sun rises overland and sets in the sea and would be more likely be when the top of the sun breaks the horizon and when the dying rays of the sun leave both having an effect on the equal split of a day .would this have implications at stone henge?
The area around pendeen has many remnants of circles menhirs and of course Men An Tol the famous holed stone which appears to have a very strong allignment of its own if google earth is to be believed. I think another trip is in order ! My images of the allignment are on the megalithic portal. my login is pebbletripper or to find my equinox picture type in chun castle / chun quoit allignment into google. p.s. I think maybe just maybe the gate stones and pointer stone at chun castle might be remnants of an earlier ring ? What say you guys?

      Hello David , I can't find a very accurate grid ref for Chun Quoit , it's mentioned on magic but the actual spot is not marked  , Google Earth , which is trustworthy in many areas , does has what looks like the site at 50.148596  -5.637691 , could you confirm that please .

George

[davidjones]

[quote name='tiompan' date='23 December 2008, 11:26' post='8338']

50° 8'54.89"N
  5°38'15.75"W
as taken from google earth . If you look to your right you will see the gate stones and marker stone which appear in the picture

[Rufus]

Hi all, thats an interesting thread to share.

[tiompan]

Sorry if this seems negative but it is the way I see the the combination of the the three sites .
     Quite a lot rests on the Chun castle having been an earlier monument , stone circle ? than the Iron Age hiil "fort " .
       I can't comment on that , don't anything about the site . Are there any grounds for that ?
      If you take the  western "entrance " as being the backsight then from there to Chun Quoit is
      269.8 a respectable equinox orientation but the entrance to the summit point of the Carn bearing is 267.8 degrees .
      and also misses the quoit to the south .The original entrance - Quoit bearing if extended to the Carn passes a point about 60 metres to the north .
      How accurate or otherwise the megalith builders were in relation to astro alignments is open to debate , personally I side with the less than gunsight  
       accurate but that does open the door to the more fortuitous examples .

[davidjones]

If you stand at  the castle you will find the 'gunsite accuracy' that you are looking for. you will also find that the left inner gate stone is shaped to match the horizon hill top ,the pointer (outer stone)with either the dip to the south of the cairn if viewed from the rear wall of the site or the cairn lower peak if viewed from the centre of the site. the right hand gate stone is shaped to match the sea horizon . The pointer stone is not part of the entrance to the fortification described . Not only is it in allignment with both the horizon and chun quoit but chun quoit is shaped to match the hills horizon as well ,the cup mark also alligning with the lower (northern cairn) although the capstone appears to dip slightly at the northern end which for a 4,000 year old monument I can fotgive. My concern is that the shaping of the three castle stones are too crisp but then if protected by the walls of the castle I suppose would be preserved. I do not propose any chronological order for these observations but they are there and are remarkabley intriguing . Worth a little more investigation at least. If these stones were a clock I would say the hands originate at chun quiot With kenidjack and chun castle two of the outer markers and pendeen cairn a third. I have extended the line over the hill above pendeen to the coast beyond but there is a victorian mine obscuring what went before. Pendeen is set out in such a way that the cairn not only overshadows the village but is also a focal point with a much traveled track. On the top of the lower cairn is a stone carving which to my untutored eye looks like a board game like fox and geese shown to me by local sculptotr and local historian Rory -Te -Teigo who has his own theories on its relevance to the areas history. The reason why I have originally focused on this dip is because of a slot about 8" x 8" running across from one side to the other and in allignment with quoit and castle , perhaps a precession way of some sort. other images on megalithic portal - Chun Quoit

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[davidjones]

sorry the image of chun quoit did not upload

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[davidjones]

pendeen carving

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[davidjones]

pendeen slot , coast

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[davidjones]

pendeen slot

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[tiompan]

davidjones, on 25 December 2008, 22:52, said:

If you stand at  the castle you will find the 'gunsite accuracy' that you are looking for. you will also find that the left inner gate stone is shaped to match the horizon hill top ,the pointer (outer stone)with either the dip to the south of the cairn if viewed from the rear wall of the site or the cairn lower peak if viewed from the centre of the site. the right hand gate stone is shaped to match the sea horizon . The pointer stone is not part of the entrance to the fortification described . Not only is it in allignment with both the horizon and chun quoit but chun quoit is shaped to match the hills horizon as well ,the cup mark also alligning with the lower (northern cairn) although the capstone appears to dip slightly at the northern end which for a 4,000 year old monument I can fotgive. My concern is that the shaping of the three castle stones are too crisp but then if protected by the walls of the castle I suppose would be preserved. I do not propose any chronological order for these observations but they are there and are remarkabley intriguing . Worth a little more investigation at least. If these stones were a clock I would say the hands originate at chun quiot With kenidjack and chun castle two of the outer markers and pendeen cairn a third. I have extended the line over the hill above pendeen to the coast beyond but there is a victorian mine obscuring what went before. Pendeen is set out in such a way that the cairn not only overshadows the village but is also a focal point with a much traveled track. On the top of the lower cairn is a stone carving which to my untutored eye looks like a board game like fox and geese shown to me by local sculptot Rory -Te -Teigo who has his own theories on its relevance to the areas history. The reason why I have originally focused on this dip is because of a slot about 8" x 8" running across from one side to the other and in allignment with quoit and castle , perhaps a precession way of some sort. other images on megalithic portal - Chun Quoit

    I was assuming that the alignment was to the top of the Carn which would have given the the three points a wee bit more saliency .
    That leaves the backsight stone when aligned over  Chun Quoit points to a part of the horizon where the sun will set 4 days before/after  the equinox  .
    Once again apologies for the negative response but if it was a standing stone and the alignment was for the equinox then it would show some
    signs of intentionality but imho the unprovenanced stone and four day lag spoil it .
The marked rock is interesting though , it looks genuine enough , it's certainly not mentioned in a recent inventory of southern rock art and the first I have seen /or hard of it . Any more info pics ?

[davidjones]

I was assuming that the alignment was to the top of the Carn which would have given the the three points a wee bit more saliency .
    That leaves the backsight stone when aligned over  Chun Quoit points to a part of the horizon where the sun will set 4 days before/after  the equinox  .
    Once again apologies for the negative response but if it was a standing stone and the alignment was for the equinox then it would show some
    signs of intentionality but imho the unprovenanced stone and four day lag spoil it .
The marked rock is interesting though , it looks genuine enough , it's certainly not mentioned in a recent inventory of southern rock art and the first I have seen /or hard of it . Any more info pics ?
[/quote]
As to whether it is the dip or right hand peak I am not sure , but deffinately not the highest point to the left which has no deffinitive peak just a cliff like edge which I believe might be from modern quarrying anyway.
I agree that the top of a hill is always a more prominent place however as regards the why 4 days I have a couple of views on that . one is the true east west thing which you do not get on the equinox as we are so far north and as the split between the summer solstice and winter solstice is displaced on this horizon as the sun sets on the true horizon over the sea during the summer ,but the winter sunset appears further south than it should as it sets on a hill and as you can see from my first picture the diagonal slope of the descending sun means it would appear further to the left the higher the horizon (hill) so an equal split would be to the left of a modern equinox. Also an equinox is middle sun to middle sun not tip of rising sun to tip of setting sun., equilux. This of course makes no difference at either the winter or summer solstice but muddies the waters by a couple of minutes at equinox time. Add this to the sun in this area not rising over the true sea horizon or atomic clocks at their disposal . I think their local 'equinox' is a very good pragmatic shot at a general time of year considering that scholars were arguing when to have the equinox up until at least the thirteenth centuary .All made worse by some sort of shift relating to however many thousands of years have passed since the first set out. I did take readings this year with a time calibrated camera but was from the wrong vantage point as I wanted to see from pendeen cairn where the sun rose in relation to the castle . sadly this means an even earlier wake up call next time as the castle is a good 40min walk in the dark. Remember we are talking minutes here not hours and if the quoit were moved from its present location it would not see both winter and summer solstices. The modern equinox falls out at sea when viewed from the castle / quoit. I will add timings to this debate at some later date ,weather and family permitting as the local group have tried for almost 20 years to get a photo of the winter solstice over kenidjack.
Just for general info and an excuse to upload another pic. There are a couple of simple lines which appear inside the quoit stones
As to further info. the author of the megalithic stones magazine Meyn Mamvro -Cheryl Straffon may be able to help or pass you on to Rory and his research.
I have been told of a standing stone that may relate to the summer solstice and the quoit by a local land owner but thats another day.

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[tiompan]

davidjones, on 27 December 2008, 0:04, said:

I agree that the top of a hill is always a more prominent place however as regards the why 4 days I have a couple of views on that . one is the true east west thing which you do not get on the equinox as we are so far north and as the split between the summer solstice and winter solstice is displaced on this horizon as the sun sets on the true horizon over the sea during the summer ,but the winter sunset appears further south than it should as it sets on a hill and as you can see from my first picture the diagonal slope of the descending sun means it would appear further to the left the higher the horizon (hill) so an equal split would be to the left of a modern equinox. Also an equinox is middle sun to middle sun not tip of rising sun to tip of setting sun., equilux. This of course makes no difference at either the winter or summer solstice but muddies the waters by a couple of minutes at equinox time. Add this to the sun in this area not rising over the true sea horizon or atomic clocks at their disposal . I think their local 'equinox' is a very good pragmatic shot at a general time of year considering that scholars were arguing when to have the equinox up until at least the thirteenth centuary .All made worse by some sort of shift relating to however many thousands of years have passed since the first set out. I did take readings this year with a time calibrated camera but was from the wrong vantage point as I wanted to see from pendeen cairn where the sun rose in relation to the castle . sadly this means an even earlier wake up call next time as the castle is a good 40min walk in the dark. Remember we are talking minutes here not hours and if the quoit were moved from its present location it would not see both winter and summer solstices. The modern equinox falls out at sea when viewed from the castle / quoit. I will add timings to this debate at some later date ,weather and family permitting as the local group have tried for almost 20 years to get a photo of the winter solstice over kenidjack.
Just for general info and an excuse to upload another pic. There are a couple of simple lines which appear inside the quoit stones
As to further info. the author of the megalithic stones magazine Meyn Mamvro -Cheryl Straffon may be able to help or pass you on to Rory and his research.
I have been told of a standing stone that may relate to the summer solstice and the quoit by a local land owner but thats another day.

    David , there are a couple of comments from above that make me think we might be talking at cross purposes . The usual approach in archaeoastronomy is that it's the point that the  event is viewed at on the equinox or solstice rather than the bearing over a flat horizon  e.g. if you lived in a very deep valley you would not see  the equinox sun until late in the day but even if it rose in the south that's the point and bearing  that matters not due east . Don't understand why you think that moving the Quoiy would stop it from seeing the solstices .
Just did a quick check and Chun Quoit - Carn kenidjack gives a declination very close to the solstice sunset
George

[davidjones]

Sorry George the comment about moving the quoit was dry humour and not relevant . Rather than trying to defend my equinox argument I will step back a stage . The  three stones at the castle are coincidently shaped to features on the horizon - the quoit is shaped like the horizon and has a hole in the cap stone the arrangement between stones quoit and the profiles they define on the horizon is in an east west allignment . Why ? or just a coincidence? directions over a hostile terrain ? Or their equinox?
  Also next time you look at google earth try Men An Tol - gate stones of Men Scryfa field- Men Scryfa - pass through Carn Gulva. The only reason you cannot see the allignment on the ground is the farmers wall of the track. Pictures next time I visit if I have a ladder or can balance a camera on a tall pole at Men An Tol
Happy new year

[tiompan]

davidjones, on 28 December 2008, 19:46, said:

Sorry George the comment about moving the quoit was dry humour and not relevant . Rather than trying to defend my equinox argument I will step back a stage . The  three stones at the castle are coincidently shaped to features on the horizon - the quoit is shaped like the horizon and has a hole in the cap stone the arrangement between stones quoit and the profiles they define on the horizon is in an east west allignment . Why ? or just a coincidence? directions over a hostile terrain ? Or their equinox?
  Also next time you look at google earth try Men An Tol - gate stones of Men Scryfa field- Men Scryfa - pass through Carn Gulva. The only reason you cannot see the allignment on the ground is the farmers wall of the track. Pictures next time I visit if I have a ladder or can balance a camera on a tall pole at Men An Tol
Happy new year

   The relationship between natural features and monuments has often been noted the most obvious being Pentre Ifan  and Carn Ingli and Llech –y –Dribedd and the Preseli hills . Richard Bradley has written on the some possible Cornish examples too . My misgivings are the greater majority don’t appear to have the connection and the likelihood of tree cover impinging on the view , maybe the few examples that fit the bill were those that didn’t have tree cover . In the case of portal dolmens many would have had a cairn which may have masked any mirroring  To show I am not exactly 100 % opposed I have included a pic a of a marked standing stone in Glen Dochart mirroring Ben More . Fortuitous ?
I had a look at the Men an Tol –Men Scryfa gate etc alignment  and imho it has more of interest than the Chun Quoit one . I think it’s fair to accept Men Scryfa as being earlier than the engravings and accept it could be a  contemporary of Men an Tol .
They align through the gate posts accurately enough  (probably a maximum error of 2metres  over 368m ) the gate posts despite being relatively modern beg the question of why here ? and is a fine local history puzzle. There doesn’t seem to be a much of a direct path between Men an Tol and the gate , which is also part of the puzzle . Carn Gulvar gives a big target and the alignment comes much closer to the highest point than the notch ,about 40 m west of the former .  As the orientation is just over 6 degrees there is no solar /lunar event being marked although that does leave the possibility of stellar orientations , a minefield , and  difficult to prove due to  precession . The declination is 41.5 you would then have to choose a likely date for the alignment then check with an ephemeris to see what was there around that date .
Happy New Year when it comes David .

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