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Lozenges, Cupmarks


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#1 Anew

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Posted 16 September 2009 - 16:12


For background, please see:


Post 4 of the Great Wold Valley thread, which brings up the Folkton Drums
The Canu'r Pwnc thread, (on an ancient vocal form)
Post 37 of the Psychedelic Mushrooms thread, which proposes a different interpretation of cupmarks
(and again), The British Museum's page on the Folkton Drums



One of the roles of the lozenge on the larger and smaller of the three Folkton Drums, is apparently that of a stylized mouth, (set horizontally, as it naturally is) . On the mid-sized drum, in a context similar to that of the larger, a lozenge appears that might represent a stylized mouth that is opened wide and narrow, (perhaps so to sing with the tone this shape would give) . [ The figurative eyes from this last are so stylized and close upon the lozenge that they could be interpreted as flared nostrils . Interestingly, they also spiral ]



I think it's worth suggesting, (perhaps it has been), that the lozenge shape was their symbolic embodiment of chanting or singing ; and that, under trance conditions, (with sound reflecting off of a stone or object, or in the case of the drum, coming from it), a person could have perceived that the inanimate itself was singing or speaking -- and therefore noninanimate . Such distillation of a face to the mouth as its primary symbolic component can also be seen in a photograph of a Native Alaskan shaman from a page, (aptly titled from John 1.1), "In the beginning was the word" . [ Note too the stylized hands, reminiscent of some of the British stylized foot carvings ]



If this is accurate, it hints that the cupmarks of the British Isles might have represented navels, (perhaps this has been suggested) ; as it may have been to them a symbol of birth, (or in a funerary context, of rebirth), in the same distilled sense as the lozenge may have been one for voice, (with its implications of life, a vitality present and expressed) . Cups with rings around them may have symbolized generations -- the family growing as does a tree . Ringed cupmarks with bridges between them may have symbolized marriages that united two clans



#2 tiompan

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 08:18

View PostAnew, on 16 September 2009 - 16:12, said:


For background, please see:


Post 4 of the Great Wold Valley thread, which brings up the Folkton Drums
The Canu'r Pwnc thread, (on an ancient vocal form)
Post 37 of the Psychedelic Mushrooms thread, which proposes a different interpretation of cupmarks
(and again), The British Museum's page on the Folkton Drums



One of the roles of the lozenge on the larger and smaller of the three Folkton Drums, is apparently that of a stylized mouth, (set horizontally, as it naturally is) . On the mid-sized drum, in a context similar to that of the larger, a lozenge appears that might represent a stylized mouth that is opened wide and narrow, (perhaps so to sing with the tone this shape would give) . [ The figurative eyes from this last are so stylized and close upon the lozenge that they could be interpreted as flared nostrils . Interestingly, they also spiral ]



I think it's worth suggesting, (perhaps it has been), that the lozenge shape was their symbolic embodiment of chanting or singing ; and that, under trance conditions, (with sound reflecting off of a stone or object, or in the case of the drum, coming from it), a person could have perceived that the inanimate itself was singing or speaking -- and therefore noninanimate . Such distillation of a face to the mouth as its primary symbolic component can also be seen in a photograph of a Native Alaskan shaman from a page, (aptly titled from John 1.1), "In the beginning was the word" . [ Note too the stylized hands, reminiscent of some of the British stylized foot carvings ]



If this is accurate, it hints that the cupmarks of the British Isles might have represented navels, (perhaps this has been suggested) ; as it may have been to them a symbol of birth, (or in a funerary context, of rebirth), in the same distilled sense as the lozenge may have been one for voice, (with its implications of life, a vitality present and expressed) . Cups with rings around them may have symbolized generations -- the family growing as does a tree . Ringed cupmarks with bridges between them may have symbolized marriages that united two clans

  Chalk is not ideal material for percussion instruments , the Folkon drums were so called from their shape .

George

#3 Anew

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 13:11

View Posttiompan, on 17 September 2009 - 08:18, said:


  Chalk is not ideal material for percussion instruments , the Folkon drums were so called from their shape .

George
The (working) drum of chalk would not have been a long experiment ; agreed




But i think there's a good chance these represented drums

Quote

I think they represent drums, yes, or percussive instruments of some kind -- there was no need to represent an urn, as they could have left an actual urn.

from: The Great Wold Valley thread, post 7



and find the context interesting ... as though these were fetish objects given a child who had been intended to become a drummer

Quote

the 'Folkton Drums', barrow grave-goods [...] which accompanied the burial of a child

[...]

It's unclear what they were meant to represent, (and they look little like the flat siberian shaman's drums i've seen)

[...]

If they do represent drums, (these are very small), the convex (or thickened centers of their) tops would have a strong effect on the sound, and raises questions about how they would have been constructed


from: The Great Wold Valley thread, post 4
"about how they would have been constructed" -- wood and leather is a common approach




Though exceedingly rare, they are/were by report not unique

Quote

A chalk drum like those found at Folkton Barrow was also found at The Maumbury Rings, though i can find no picture.

from: The Great Wold Valley thread, post 5



If there is a better interpretation for these 'drums', it might weaken this proposed link between the lozenge and the chant or song . But it seems clear that two, (i imagine all three), have faces with a lozenge for the mouth

#4 kevin.b

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 22:55

Anew,
    If you click on the T'rex picture of this link, the first pictures are of the Folkton drums, click on them to enlarge.
The third one shows the drum top.
http://wfa.glbx.imag...a.com/index.jsp

Two adjacent points create an interferance pattern where fleur de lis patterns are created, the fleur de lis is shown on the drun outer edge in line with the centre of the drum top.
They sing in churchs don't they?
The fleur de lis is where the churchs are sited, the churchs are resonant chambers, built to straight lines, notice any on the drums?
Solfeggio.
Kevin

#5 Anew

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 04:42

Thanks Kevin, nice link.


I believe that what you see as a fleur-de-lis, i was imagining as a singing mouth . It is on the side of the mid-size 'drum', having 4 concentric circle-sets on top ?


Perhaps there might be another interpretation, (interesting, whether or not true), that of a heart . The four circle-sets of the top could have represented the heart's four chambers and blood directions, (outside of itself : to the body, to the lungs, from the body, from the lungs), which could have held symbolic importance to them . (I'd also like the circles on top to represent beats, which they could have, but note that the heartbeat doesn't have four distinct peaks) . If the idea is viable, the two abbreviated spirals above the lozenge could have represented breath, (life, vitality), flowing to and from the heart, by way of the lungs . It's a stretch already, but to take it further, the spiral in general could have held meaning to them as the symbol of breath ; (perhaps suggested by the way water may spiral when draining from a container, and make a breathing or sucking sound doing so) . Extending this, a spiral in one direction might have symbolized inhalation, in the other, exhalation . Where spirals and lozenges are found together, (as at Newgrange), these could have symbolized the union of breath with heart and/or the song/chant, (ambiguity is useful here, as the beating of the heart could be said to be its chant, and emotion has classically been the heart's song) . If they thought about it this way, they might have pursued, (in some traditions or subcultures), the possibility of singing or chanting during both exhalation and inhalation---an uninterrupted sound . If so, a ceremonial site or device connected with the practice might be indicated by the presence of lozenges and both counter- and clockwise spirals



Well worth considering :

Quote

From page 503-4

The diamond-shape or lozenge is a symbol commonly found, from Ireland to Persia and beyond . It occurs naturally in latticework, such as basketwork, or crisscross floor and wall decoration, and for this reason much caution is needed in interpreting it, and in deciding whether individual cases were self-consciously symbolic, or even self-consciously lozenge-shaped . Is the trelliswork motif on Irish monuments---for instance at Newgrange---to be seen as a set of lozenges, or does it occur by an accident of geometry ? What was in the mind of the person responsible ? Simple lozenges are common on pottery from an early period . In the oldest Balkan forms (from the seventh to the fifth millennium) there are lozenge-shapes with what are plainly human associations, for they are very often found on the female form, frequently on the belly, and thus suggesting a fertility symbol . The lozenge occasionally alternates with spirals or zigzags, seen by some interpreters as phallic snakes, shells, or water . A piece of bone (a horse mandible) found in Kendrick's Cave, Llandudno, and dating from about 8000 BC, was covered with a zigzag decoration . Clay plaques of around 5000 BC from eastern Serbia mix nested lozenges with spirals---the two supreme geometrical Neolithic symbols . (One example is drawn in Fig 194.) One could multiply occurrences almost endlessly, but to what purpose ? Just as today many different meanings are regularly read into the shape, it might be that, in the past too, the lozenge was many things to many people . In some of its contexts it seems to have had a connection with the Sun or Moon, but even if some of its meanings were in a broad sense astronomical, others were certainly not, and the earliest were almost certainly not.

The genesis of even the simplest of symbols is often complicated . Suppose, for example, that t religious architect were to have marked out two parallel lines towards the rising midwinter Sun and then to draw across them two parallel lines (with the same spacing) towards the setting midwinter Sun . A lozenge-shape would result, its angles depending on geographical latitude and local horizon . With the Moon, another lozenge would be produced, of a different shape . Suppose now that from an earlier time there was a certain cluster of ideas in which the lozenge already had some sort of symbolic role---an evolving cluster, perhaps, but quite possibly one that first had sexual meaning . If cosmic religions were giving rise to experiment with alignments towards the risings and settings of the stars, Sun, and Moon, then the new 'astronomical' symbol might very easily have been made to relate to that older cluster of ideas . Such an association might have served to reinforce old associations, and so take on a life of its own . Earlier occurrences of the symbol need not have been overtly astronomical, and even if the context was later transformed into a symbolism of alignments, an ordinary person, asked about symbolic meanings, might well have answered in terms of the older symbolism---the Moon, fertility, or whatever it happened to be.


From page 517-18

One of the finest examples of chalk carving from prehistoric times has incised designs that seem to share in whatever tradition it was that the lozenge shape expressed . The Folkton drums, now in the British Museum, are among the most problematical of artefacts . Three carved chalk cylinders, they were found in 1890 by William Greenwell on the site of a small Bell-Beaker round barrow at Folkton, in the East Riding of Yorkshire . They were found not with the main burial but accompanying the skeleton of a child---one at the head and the others at the hips---just inside the outer ditch . The body of the child was laid north-south, with the head to the north, and to someone standing by it, the bearing of the centre of the mound was ten or a dozen degrees north of west . The cylinders measure roughly between 10 and 15 cm in diameter, and between 8 and 12 cm high . Their geometrical marking---to which stylized eyes and nose were added in the manner of megalithic art---could easily be found a broad interpretation along the lines provided here for the simple lozenges, but like almost all decoration in this style it is not carefully and exactly ruled . The very portability of the drums, not to mention the eyes they bear make one wonder whether they were originally used as movable markers for an observer's position . Zigzag decoration is associated with single or double 'eyes' on numerous portable plates and cylinders from Spain and Portugal, many looking as though they too might have been used as portable markers for ritual observing positions . (See Plates 12 and 17.) They were often allocated one to each body, in passage graves, but that they do not belong only there is suggested by the strong resemblance many of them have to the much larger static upright human figures found in the same regions.

The top of the largest Folkton cylinder---like the others it is a domed top---has a series of concentric circles at the centre of a four-pointed star-like figure . This could be interpreted as a symbol of the key directions of solar or lunar extremes in relation to the central barrow (the circles); but once again, since the decoration is so inexact, there is no possible way of confirming this idea.

The same is true of the many other lozenge and chevron shapes found on Neolithic and Bronze Age artefacts . Indeed, a pottery vessel from Folkton has a fine lozenge-creating crisscross of lines over its entire base, and surely nobody would dream of relating this directly to a solar or lunar ritual . The fact remains that like the cross of Cristianity of the crescent of Islam, the lozenge and the chevron could easily have been taken over from an older symbolism and given a precise meaning, before being eventually repeated again and again without much thought for it.


Source -- Stonehenge: a new interpretation of prehistoric man and the cosmos -- by John David North, (ISBN-10 0684845121)


#6 kevin.b

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 08:56

Anew,
        As ever stunning thinking.
When I talk of what I detect, it is of the Earth, I also find the same of ourselves.
The Earth has this self same rythm, just on a much larger , thus larger timescale.
I suspect that bees and humming birds will exhibit the same ,but much faster.
If you study the schumann resonance of the planet then it is increasing NOW.
We are a product of the condition about the planet, I am confident that the zig zags are frequency related.
The breathing is central, correct breathing allows the lifeforce to enter in at the top and bottom of our actual selves, the biological body is merely the tool to achieve all of this.
Location,location,location is vital, it's a system, they write music on parallel lines.

The galaxy is breathing, the universe is breathing, but in much much larger scale, it will breath in at a certain point, it will exhale at a certain point, all to SCALE, a musical scale, doh ray me, what could that be, so far away, oh dear ,a female dear hiding in plain site?
kevin

#7 kevin.b

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 09:27

Anew,
        if you view those drums as teaching aids, then imagine them sat around a fire talking and discussing this with the drums as visual aids.

Kevin

#8 kevin.b

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 09:55

In this link is a piece they have described as "art"
I see straight parallel lines, I suspect if we had the full picture, they may all cross over each other at a point.
Each line imo will have a flow at different rates, and the flows rise and fall, almost as though they were alive.
The walls been meters thick suggest resonace chamber to me.
http://www.orkneyjar...dgar/index.html
kevin

#9 Anew

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 10:50

View Postkevin.b, on 18 September 2009 - 09:27, said:

if you view those drums as teaching aids, then imagine them sat around a fire talking and discussing this with the drums as visual aids.
They might have had breathing methods, seems reasonable


View Postkevin.b, on 18 September 2009 - 09:55, said:

Each line imo will have a flow at different rates, and the flows rise and fall, almost as though they were alive.
I like that

#10 kevin.b

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 17:40

Anew,
       I reckon You are the king of triangles.
This is a bit off topic , but not really.
http://www.physorg.c...s172480666.html
kevin

#11 Anew

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 00:39

View Postkevin.b, on 18 September 2009 - 17:40, said:

Anew,
       I reckon You are the king of triangles.
This is a bit off topic , but not really.
http://www.physorg.c...s172480666.html
kevin

' Looks like the kind of thing i was doing when i was looking for directional lines from the stones in circles to other sites . I came to doubt my results after realizing that i was using a flat (Mercator) map to find directions which would be applied on a globe, often over long distances . The two, map & globe, are not exactly alike, particularly in the upper latitudes . This might be compensated for by a revision of the methods ; but i've come to believe that distance travel in their day and age would best have been with a guide, as much for escort as direction ... To have traveled through another's territory without one of their member to vouch (for the traveler) could have been considered exceptional


Anew, King of Triangles

#12 shiny

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 03:37

Anew wrote.......... ""; but i've come to believe that distance travel in their day and age would best have been with a guide, as much for escort as direction ... To have traveled through another's territory without one of their member to vouch (for the traveler) could have been considered exceptional""



                  That seems the most sensible suggestion that could be made on this topic.

#13 Anew

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Posted 2 October 2010 - 07:46



Here's a thought ... The moon is 'cupmarked'



#14 tiompan

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Posted 2 October 2010 - 10:27

One bloke thought that orthostat 47 in Knowth was a map of the moon .
George

#15 Anew

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Posted 2 October 2010 - 13:26

View Posttiompan, on 2 October 2010 - 10:27, said:

One bloke thought that orthostat 47 in Knowth was a map of the moon .
George

Thanks for that : ) The Lunar Maps of Knowth (

As their work could be very free-form, i would be surprised to find an unambiguous match . I am leaning towards their expression of symbols more often than objects, and/or an active imagery best viewed within a ceremonial zone, set and setting .

I think that, (if their thinking ran this way), the moon's apparent marking may have planted an idea in people's minds, (which could have become grouped with other ideas) ~ and then they did what they did, (i still favor the trance and/or trips model), and carved, or vice versa . There is a time of the month when a slightly gibbous setting moon (to me) resembles a mushroom cap, (though neither the liberty cap nor the fly agaric), at about the fifth day from the full, (the sixth if one counts the full) . Druids are held to have had beliefs about the 6th day of the lunar cycle ; though this may have been from the new, and opens the questions of whether there is much reliable information about them, and whether they were involved with stone circles ... I think they were . Whomever these people had been, if they used mushrooms to perceive a communing with the dead, they might have felt the more guided to cupmark stones ~ if stones were (generally) associated with the dead, but the (stone) moon was associated with death and rebirth, (a cycle it apparently, continually, goes through), taking also into account its link to human fertility .

The ) Glebe, or Cong ( stone circle group has a gloriously, (i'm told naturally), cupmarked stone .



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