19 replies to this topic

[snapshot]

Is there any way of knowing if the remains found it portal tombs were laid to rest in tact or first placed on top of the tomb to be eaten by the birds then the bones placed in the tomb.

[Pete G]

some tombs such as West Kennet Long Barrow in Wiltshire had disarticulated bones within the chambers that showed signs of defleshing with flint tools,
PeteG

[tiompan]

Almost impossible to prove in that particular case . There is no evidence for any type of excarnation in the UK .The fact that bones are missing from some internments could be due to factors like secondary burial ,canid scavenging  even problems with recovery of bodies from earlier conflict.  

George

[Anew]

Possibly of interest in this context:

Quote

The timber and earth trough-like structure with blocked ends indicated at Streethouse (Vyner 1984, 161) would have facilitated direct access to the mortuary deposit over the flanking banks, and thus would have enabled a degree of selection and manipulation of the bones prior to the construction of the mound (Figure 6.2) . At Haddenham in Cambridgeshire, a similar chamber was preserved by waterlogging . Here the structure was boxlike, with roof, floor and sides composed of oak planks, again allowing repeated contact with its contents (Hodder and Shand 1988, 350) (Figure 6.3) . In some examples, as at Wayland's Smithy 1, the floor of the chamber was formed by a stone pavement (Whittle 1991, 70) . There is considerable evidence form the British barrows that these structures were open and accessible for some while before the construction of the covering mound . In a sense this confirms Piggott's original suggestion that the throwing up of the barrow might be seen as the equivalent of the blocking of a megalithic tomb, bringing to an end a sequence of depositional acts (1966, 387) . At Kilham in Yorkshire, the linear mortuary structure was far from being axial to the trapezoid palisade enclosure, and this suggests that its construction represented a separate event (Manby 1976, 123) . Similarly, at Fussell's Lodge in Wiltshire, the end pit of the mortuary structure was cut on both sides by the bedding trenches for another palisade enclosure, thus demonstrating its structural priority (Ashbee 1966) . At Cold Kitchen Hill in Wiltshire, some of the timbers had evidently been in the earth long enough to be replaced (Harding and Gingell 1986, 8).

from: Understanding the Neolithic, Julian Thomas, page 131

I find the illustrations, (figures 6.2 in particular, and 6.3), suggest that excarnation may have been practiced ; whether by birds or flies or both . Defleshing with flints may have been an acceleration of this process ; and i am reminded of hearing that some Siberian tribes until modern times felt it necessary to cut/wound the bodies of the dead as they felt that otherwise they invited/gave-rise-to powerful evil spirits/spells

[Pete G]

tiompan, on 14 March 2010 - 23:44, said:

Almost impossible to prove in that particular case . There is no evidence for any type of excarnation in the UK .The fact that bones are missing from some internments could be due to factors like secondary burial ,canid scavenging  even problems with recovery of bodies from earlier conflict.  

George

this is true, as it has been said before "Archaeology is the science of rubbish"
and much rubbish is written about it in trying to guess the true meaning of what was happening in the dim past,
Pete

[tiompan]

Anew, on 15 March 2010 - 00:44, said:

Possibly of interest in this context:

Quote

The timber and earth trough-like structure with blocked ends indicated at Streethouse (Vyner 1984, 161) would have facilitated direct access to the mortuary deposit over the flanking banks, and thus would have enabled a degree of selection and manipulation of the bones prior to the construction of the mound (Figure 6.2) . At Haddenham in Cambridgeshire, a similar chamber was preserved by waterlogging . Here the structure was boxlike, with roof, floor and sides composed of oak planks, again allowing repeated contact with its contents (Hodder and Shand 1988, 350) (Figure 6.3) . In some examples, as at Wayland's Smithy 1, the floor of the chamber was formed by a stone pavement (Whittle 1991, 70) . There is considerable evidence form the British barrows that these structures were open and accessible for some while before the construction of the covering mound . In a sense this confirms Piggott's original suggestion that the throwing up of the barrow might be seen as the equivalent of the blocking of a megalithic tomb, bringing to an end a sequence of depositional acts (1966, 387) . At Kilham in Yorkshire, the linear mortuary structure was far from being axial to the trapezoid palisade enclosure, and this suggests that its construction represented a separate event (Manby 1976, 123) . Similarly, at Fussell's Lodge in Wiltshire, the end pit of the mortuary structure was cut on both sides by the bedding trenches for another palisade enclosure, thus demonstrating its structural priority (Ashbee 1966) . At Cold Kitchen Hill in Wiltshire, some of the timbers had evidently been in the earth long enough to be replaced (Harding and Gingell 1986, 8).

from: Understanding the Neolithic, Julian Thomas, page 131

I find the illustrations, (figures 6.2 in particular, and 6.3), suggest that excarnation may have been practiced ; whether by birds or flies or both . Defleshing with flints may have been an acceleration of this process ; and i am reminded of hearing that some Siberian tribes until modern times felt it necessary to cut/wound the bodies of the dead as they felt that otherwise they invited/gave-rise-to powerful evil spirits/spells

There are many more similar examples . Atkinson coined the term "long mortuary enclosure " and Jack Scott later suggested excarnation as a possibility .In some case, Haddenham and Waylands Smithy ,ossuaries ,if anything  are more likely . At Catal Hoyuk there are paintings of vultures,ideal for excarnation but Ian Hodder says there is no proof for excarnation , many of the burials are intact including the very small bones which would be lost if excarnated . Ultimately the suggestion is based on disparate historic practices , a structure that could have a variety of purposes and  no evidence to support it .

George

[kevin.b]

If instead of thinking that these structures were for burying bodies in the sense that We do now, instead if You consider that they were chambers for burying the soul of the deceased, and as such were used over long periods of time, and that TIME may have altered as time flowed along.
Then it makes far more sense to only enter cleaned off bones or cremations into these chambers, otherwise they may become not too pleasant.
Kevin

[tiompan]

kevin.b, on 15 March 2010 - 15:59, said:

If instead of thinking that these structures were for burying bodies in the sense that We do now, instead if You consider that they were chambers for burying the soul of the deceased, and as such were used over long periods of time, and that TIME may have altered as time flowed along.
Then it makes far more sense to only enter cleaned off bones or cremations into these chambers, otherwise they may become not too pleasant.
Kevin

The numbers of individuals  found in the variety of mortuary structures are a fraction of the population ,it has been apparent for a long time that these buildings are not merely for disposal of the dead .

George

[kevin.b]

tiompan, on 15 March 2010 - 16:43, said:

kevin.b, on 15 March 2010 - 15:59, said:

If instead of thinking that these structures were for burying bodies in the sense that We do now, instead if You consider that they were chambers for burying the soul of the deceased, and as such were used over long periods of time, and that TIME may have altered as time flowed along.
Then it makes far more sense to only enter cleaned off bones or cremations into these chambers, otherwise they may become not too pleasant.
Kevin

The numbers of individuals  found in the variety of mortuary structures are a fraction of the population ,it has been apparent for a long time that these buildings are not merely for disposal of the dead .

George

Well I very much suspect that the vast overwhelming majority of people are under the illusion that they are for burying the dead, but most people only see and think in terms of the physical dimension We and the chambers occupy.

Snapshot asked if the bodies were laid out on top of the chambers, to be cleaned of flesh  which I consider to be a fine question and would geometrically make sense to me , and possibly explain why fences around such points were errected as you would hardly want some wolf running off with Your dear departed.

I say geometric because it is My personal finding that these chambers are sited to match a natural geometric phenonoma that exists there.
And that a reversal of implosion and emittance can be observed at such points relative to the moon in particuler.

I consider thus that location, location, location was paramount with high regard to the departeds soul in particuler, something of which We presently give scant thought to.
If You have ever experienced other dimensions( I have) then the geometry will be better comprehended, but very difficult to verbalise and not run foul of those who cannot comprehend of such.
http://www.bibliotec...onremota_23.htm
Kevin

[harry sivertsen]

While there is no solid evidence for excarnation in Britain there equally is no solid evidence that it did not occur but circumstantial evidence exits indicating that it may have occurred. It appears a highly logical idea for a number of reasons some of which have been stated on this thread by others.

The idea cannot be dismissed not it assumed unlikely. It is very strong probability.

The forebears of the British came to these islands from other regions where this did occur as is evident from genetic tracing so traditions would likely have been followed.

[tiompan]

It is possible that excarnation was carried out in prehistoric Britain but we don’t know and don’t have the evidence .We could argue for a whole slew of cultural practices found elsewhere with similar or non related haplotypes to those found here  ,Suti , circumcision , eating brains , polygamy , whippet racing etc , all we need is the evidence .
We base a hypothesis on evidence not lack of it .
Those cultures  that we know that  practiced  excarnation came from gene pools in areas  that have had minimal impact on the UK  i.e.  modern Japan ,Tibet  ,North America and   India(n)  Zoroastrianism . The areas that did supply the vast majority of our gene pool – Anatolia ,Fertile crescent ,Middle East etc . do not have a history  of excarnation . Regardless, culture may influence gene frequency but cultural practices  are not transmitted genetically .

George

[harry sivertsen]

George,

Regions practising Zoroastrianism probably influential. Here we are looking predominately at Persia and a great deal of influence spread from that region.  Of course analysis is based upon evidence but other possibilities cannot be discounted. We cannot disregard possibilities due to a lack of hard physical evidence. The possibility must remain open or it will be assumed that whatever is under discussion could not have arisen. Don't chuck the proverbial baby out with the bathwater...there has been far too much dogmatism in the past in historical investigations; let us keep that attitude at bay and maintain open minds to all possibilities.

Harry

[tiompan]

harry sivertsen, on 19 March 2010 - 16:14, said:

George,

Regions practising Zoroastrianism probably influential. Here we are looking predominately at Persia and a great deal of influence spread from that region.  Of course analysis is based upon evidence but other possibilities cannot be discounted. We cannot disregard possibilities due to a lack of hard physical evidence. The possibility must remain open or it will be assumed that whatever is under discussion could not have arisen. Don't chuck the proverbial baby out with the bathwater...there has been far too much dogmatism in the past in historical investigations; let us keep that attitude at bay and maintain open minds to all possibilities.

Harry

  Harry ,
            Was any of what I said dogmatic ? Zoroastrianism could'nt influence any Neolithic-Bronze Age practices here as the founder wasn't even born until at least the Late Bronze Age .
George

[harry sivertsen]

George

No you haven't stated anything that could be construed as dogmatic, just me being a little overzealous perhaps.  I did not note anything specifically appertaining to neolithic in the commentaries though... apologies if I inadvertently missed something. My thoughts were toward the suggestions made by Josh Pollard relating to post holes found close to Stonehenge and his suggestion of platforms for excarnation. The dating could feasibly have been coherent with that of Zarathustra and many practises spread across wide regions as we are all aware.  It has to be admitted that it[excarnation] is a practise that was probably, albeit not at the moment provably, was one that was utilised over a wide area hence my comments regarding the possibility of its use here.

Harry

[tiompan]

Harry , I didn't mention the Neolithic -EBA as such but mortuary enclosures usually date from that period .

George