35 replies to this topic

[Mike Williams]

The megalithic tombs that were a feature of the British and Irish Neolithic may help to shed light on people’s attitudes towards death and their apparent belief in an afterlife.

For many contemporary traditional people, death has two stages: leaving the world of the living, followed by joining the world of the dead. Between these stages, the spirits of the dead are thought to stay close to the living and, if such a view prevailed in the Neolithic, this may explain why burial places had so much activity that went beyond mere disposal of the corpse. In effect, whilst they remained between the worlds, the dead became a resource that could be approached and even communicated with as if they were still alive.

It is likely that entire corpses were placed in the entrance passageways to the tombs or even left in the forecourt, where they would putrefy and rot. When the remains started to fall apart, certain bones might be removed and used for ceremonies. As the bones hardened and lost all resemblance of flesh, some were returned to the tomb, to be sorted and stacked with matching bones that already lay in the far depths of the chamber. Only now would the deceased pass to the afterlife and enter the realm of the dead. The individual had, perhaps, become an ancestor.

Although the interiors of these tombs were sometimes spacious, they were presumably crowded with bones, and the passageways leading to them were often small and cramped. Moreover, the space was probably highly charged with the presence of the dead and may have been considered dangerous even taboo.

A hint of what might have been involved in rituals surrounding the tomb is revealed in a strange property of the forecourts. Some tombs were laid out to amplify the sound of a drum and achieve the exact frequency required to facilitate trance (what we might call shamanism today). In some Welsh and Irish tombs, there are engraved patterns and these match geometric shapes that are often seen in trance. Some of these images seem to mark significant stages of the journey into the tomb, perhaps signs put there for the dead spirits who may have been thought to be undergoing their own equivalent to a trance journey to other realms. Even the form of the tomb itself, with a passageway leading to the realm of the spirits, closely matches reported experiences of trance journeys and the shared imagery may have been readily understood by Neolithic people as referencing both experiences.

At a very small number of tombs, the route that the dead spirit followed may have been guided by the rising sun, shining down the entrance passageway and illuminating the chamber itself. Such tombs are generally aligned so that this happens on a significant day, such as the solstices or equinoxes, and this is what happened at Newgrange in Ireland. On the midwinter solstice, the rising sun shone through a slot above the door, constructed so that the beam could be angled correctly to reach all the way to the inner chamber. It was a sight few would have witnessed (and those outside the tomb may have had to form a clear route for the sun’s rays to penetrate) but perhaps it was never meant to be seen by the living. When the sun reached the chamber, it hit a small section of wall, low down on the right hand side. Engraved on the wall were three joined spirals and these flare brightly under the glare of the sun. Again, this matches trance visions of spirals and tunnels as providing access to alternative realms. Is this the sign the dead spirits were waiting for: the illumination of the spiral that symbolised access to the afterlife? If so, then it reveals much about Neolithic approaches to death and how this was influenced by their experience of trance.

[Ishtar]

Very interesting, Mike.

Your usual very high standard of writing!

I can certainly testify to seeing swirling tunnels while in trance, and using the beat of the drum to help get me there.

I also find it easier to enter the trance state on equinoxes and solstices... it's almost as if there's a strong wave that carries you ...a bit like surfing over high waves. The rest of the time, the waves are not so deep and high.

Anyway, thanks for a good read!

[tiompan]

Jeremy Dronfield ,I think he is a crime and fantasy writer these days . suggested something along these lines about 15 years ago ,
I'll avoid discussing conjecture and if's and may(s) and  “may have beens “ ,there is at least one conditional form in each paragraph and as we don't know about trance or shaman in the Irish /British Neolithic , both terms having potentially such a wide definition as to be meaningless ,I'll stick to factual problems .
The number of individuals  , whether a small cremated deposit or near entire internment ,  found in all of the  monuments described as “tombs” i.e. Long barrows , passage graves , chambered tombs dating from  the Neolithic are only a tiny percentage of that population and some have no human remains at all whilst others also have animal remains .The Neolithic approach to the dead is an immense puzzle because we simply don't know what happened to the vast majority of the people who lived at that time .That in itself should tell us about the neolithic approach to death . Apart from that huge hole in our understanding there are sites where the dead were interred in large numbers and are clearly intended for  that purpose plus they have ornamentation on material culture left with the internments as grave goods . Cemeteries like Varna which had 281 graves  , or the Ertebolle burial grounds of Vedluek , Nederst  and Skateholm .These sites may provide a greater understanding of the Neolithic approach to death as that is what appears to be the primary concern .

At Newgrange spirals are as frequent externally  as they are in the passage and chambers and recesses , does this suggest that the audience may not be restricted to those with access or the “spirits “  . The light box would not be blocked by anyone standing in front of it ,unless there really were “giants in the land “. The beam of light will not be illuminate the triple spiral at Solstice . There have been a few attempts at recording the acoustics inside the passages and chambers of passage graves etc but the none that I know of at the entrances . We don't  know what the entrance to Newgrange was like at all , have you seen the pre-excavation pics ? The present facade will not provide useful information to the prehistoric acoustics ,and we certainly don't what happened in the forecourt maybe there was reverential silence  ,laughing ,keening , dancing , harp playing , shagging , or swigging from hip flasks .
We don't know much about what practices took place at Long barrows/passage graves  in general and Newgrange in particular but the little we do know of the type of monument that had human remains deposited it is apparent that bodies were put in the monument soon after death and the monument sealed within a generation to three generations .Maybe we will find totally different practices in the future but that's the little we have to go at the moment .
The majority of these monuments do not have an orientation to equinox or solstices but Newgrange does ,  maybe the engravings have some relationship to that , at least we are more assured of that as opposed to conjectural trance ,shaman and drumming . The source/inspiration of the motifs are available to everyone , everywhere in every period , and can be result of a huge number of everyday experiences as well as trance and hallucination , children draw them all the time .
Do trance states explain Neolithic approaches to death? No I don't think so Mike .

George

[kevin.b]

It has been My observation that any attempt to discuss such as this outside of the alternative section simply meets with a never ending barage of calls for proof , and that proof is demanded to fit into current accepted thinking and laws of such.
Just because there is a hole with nothing now in it( so called light box) does not mean it once did not have something in it, i consider a quartz slab may have filled that hole, for reasons I will not discuss on this section of the forum in respect for the forum owner who's wish's I respect, as I do on your forum Ishtar.
cropredy

[tiompan]

kevin.b, on 26 August 2010 - 20:35, said:

It has been My observation that any attempt to discuss such as this outside of the alternative section simply meets with a never ending barage of calls for proof , and that proof is demanded to fit into current accepted thinking and laws of such.
Just because there is a hole with nothing now in it( so called light box) does not mean it once did not have something in it, i consider a quartz slab may have filled that hole, for reasons I will not discuss on this section of the forum in respect for the forum owner who's wish's I respect, as I do on your forum Ishtar.
cropredy

There were two blocks of quartz that took up the space of the roof box but as we evidence/proof for that maybe you would have to discount it .

George

[kevin.b]

tiompan, on 26 August 2010 - 20:49, said:

kevin.b, on 26 August 2010 - 20:35, said:

It has been My observation that any attempt to discuss such as this outside of the alternative section simply meets with a never ending barage of calls for proof , and that proof is demanded to fit into current accepted thinking and laws of such.
Just because there is a hole with nothing now in it( so called light box) does not mean it once did not have something in it, i consider a quartz slab may have filled that hole, for reasons I will not discuss on this section of the forum in respect for the forum owner who's wish's I respect, as I do on your forum Ishtar.
cropredy

There were two blocks of quartz that took up the space of the roof box but as we evidence/proof for that maybe you would have to discount it .

George

I think You missed a few words Tiompan?
Kevin

[tiompan]

ooops , one . Have .

george

[kevin.b]

There's some interesting links to many things on this site,
http://www.primitive...stal-light2.htm
Kevin

[tiompan]

Pretty ubiquitous at prehsitoric sites (quartz) .It's gaelic name is grianchloch which translated means "sun stone " .
  
george

[Lai55]

Thanks guys,
I learned many things in this site.
Godspeed!


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[BuckyE]

Weren't the exedra (forecourts) added later to existing and usually blocked barrows? I'm pretty sure the exedra of the Sardinian tomba gigante were Bronze Age additions  (more or less contemporaneous with the nuraghe) to Neolithic barrows. And that the same is true of West Kennet and Wayland Smithy, e.g., although those might be later Neolithic and not Bronze Age additions.

Solar/lunar "orientations" are so all over the compass that they're pretty meaningless, I'd say. Plus pretty difficult, lacking any identified backsites, to truly establish.

[tiompan]

To be fair to the origianl poster hewas talking about a limited number of megalithic tombs .In the case of Newgrange the monument , that he was considering  ,and WKLB ,wayland's Smithy  I'm sure the forecourt was part of the original architecture and not a later addition .True the passages of passage graves etc are oriented all over the place but the vast majority are aligned on the the part of the sky where the sun sets or rises and the odd few ahve obvious orienations on solstices as in the case of the Newgrange .The passage itself ,like an avenue , is usually considered as being sufficiently intentional, i.e. a lot more than just two stones 20 metres apart theres a whole row of them  . What is lacking is any evidence of shamen being involved in  the building ,art ,astronomy or any ceremonies that may have taken place at the monument .See above .
  George

[BuckyE]

OK, George, as you say. Mike said, "The megalithic tombs that were a feature of the British and Irish Neolithic may help to shed light on people’s attitudes towards death and their apparent belief in an afterlife." I don't see anything in his subsequent posting that limits his analysis to WKLB and Newgrange. Those may be the two examples he evinces, but that's different. The inference is clearly that he's talking about some large number of examples.

As far as I can find, the majority of passage graves etc. are oriented to somewhere between extreme sunrise and extreme sunset, with many all the way in between. Mike Hoskins himself is very careful to label them as sunrise/sunrising, sunset/sunsetting. NOT to any specific event, just in the range. I do not know of any authority that claims any majority of orientations (British, French, Portugese, etc.) is to specific sun or moon rising/setting. I'd be glad to have pointers to anyone having statistics to back up such a claim!

You are correct, and I apologize, that ringing in Sardinian examples takes the discussion out of Mike's original brief. However, didn't you yourself imply we don't know what Newgrange's original exedra may have been? Or did I misunderstand your comment "We don't know what the entrance to Newgrange was like at all , have you seen the pre-excavation pics ?" So instead of the forecourts of "megalithic tombs that were a feature of the British and Irish Neolithic" we are left with one potential example, Wayland's Smithy. And anyone thinking those few rocks have some marvelous acoustic properties is just spinning moonshine.

Now, I've been down in Pech Merle and the Cave of Niaux. Seen in the former stalagmites with marks on them that may be from percussive events. Heard in the latter the weird echoes in the farthest, most decorated chamber. Those places may be candidates for powerful sounds. But if Patrick McGovern has anything useful to say, "trance" was most often induced by alcohol. My money's on the booze.

[tiompan]

Bucky , I am not at all sympathetic towards  the suggestions Mike’s  post ,hence my final comment “see above” , but I did remember the phrase  “At a very small number of tombs, the route that the dead spirit followed may have been guided by the rising sun, shining down the entrance passageway and illuminating the chamber itself “ which does limit the choices  although I don’t believe he was necessarily including WKLB .
I was thinking of Hoskins when I said  “are aligned on the  part of the sky where the sun sets or rises and the odd few have obvious orientations on solstices as in the case of the Newgrange “(typos amended ) I did not mention  or imply anything specific  so your paragraph is no different from what I was suggesting  .Imposing the Thom paradigm on passage graves , which are excellent examples of intentional orientation  , shows that it hardly applies to them at all and if there is anything to add to their astro understanding it will come  “browner “  approach .

My comment  "We don't know what the entrance to Newgrange was like at all , have you seen the pre-excavation pics ?" Was a flippant response to the original “It is likely that entire corpses were placed in the entrance passageways to the tombs or even left in the forecourt, where they would putrefy and rot.” . No , not likely , that was just suggestion with no evidence for support like nearly all the comments . There were some other confused comments about the acoustics of the forecourt/tomb (it’s not clear which was being suggested ) providing the “exact frequency required to facilitate trance “ . No figures are mentioned or what type of trance . There are conflicting studies giving different frequencies but all resonators will have more than one frequency and you can always find a suitable effect for that frequency . Yes “moonshine “ as  you say . The forecourt is a feature of  the architecture of many different types of barrow/tomb  e.g.  Court tombs , Cotswold Severn tombs , earthen and megalithic long barrows ,Clyde/Carlingford tombs etc . The presence of rock art is the most likely explanation for the suggestion that trance may be involved in ceremonies or even the inspiration for the rock art . The trance suggestion is colourful    
but there is no evidence , it’s the presence of the rock art that prompted it and there is nothing to suggest a connection between the two whether induced by the “exact frequencies “  booze , sleep deprivation or other  it’s as if the engravers were incapable of coming up with a relatively limited  variety of motifs in the case of Atlantic rock  art or the sophistication of the “ice age art “ without them .

George

[BuckyE]

Dear George,

Interesting suggestion that people have linked in their muddled thinking rock art and "trance." (And I'm not at all clear what is meant by the vague term "trance.") Thanks for enumerating the various exedra examples. I'll have to look at pics of those; didn't realize there were as many of them as you've told me. Is this along the lines of The Mind in the Cave? I may be misunderstanding you, but I would agree that having to invoke "trance," however induced, to explain art is not very imaginative on the part of the explainers. Plenty of teetotal artists around.

On the other hand, in addition to Patrick McGovern, I also like http://ethnomycology...gurineIntro.htm . I fully believe a lot of the inspiration for ancient religion/art/megalithic building came from --ahem-- mind altering practices of one kind or another, both communal and private.

As far as acoustic effects go for altering minds, I'd also have thought Coves (Avebury, Stanton Drew, are there others?) would be a better candidate than the somewhat erratic and flattened "forecourts" of WKLB or Wayland's Smithy. Those few forecourts we've seen in Great Britain seem to me more like facades than actual exedra as in Sardinia. And as such, wouldn't be very effective at amplifying or concentrating sounds. But that may well be my ignorance and limited visiting!

Thanks for helping me along!

Yours,
Bucky Edgett