35 replies to this topic

[tiompan]

Bucky ,  it seems to me that when confronted with examples of excellence one reaction is to invoke outside influences , aliens , drugs ,deals with the devil , magical practices etc , not that any of these ,  with the exception of aliens  , will necessarily help or impede but they do not explain the pyramids , Beethoven , Shakespeare , rock art or Janelle Monae . It is demeaning  ,as if those responsible for the achievements could not possibly manage to do so without some external assistance , it’s also lazy ,a  universalising  “well that explains that away then “attitude .
There are some religions /cosmologies where inebriation plays an important part but for the majority it doesn’t and in the cases of the creators and followers   of  “new” religions/cosmologies which have been recorded from the start  , e.g.   Joseph Smith , L.Ron Hubbard , Shree Rajnish  there is little to suggest a connection .
From Mikes  original post “ In some Welsh and Irish tombs, there are engraved patterns and these match geometric shapes that are often seen in trance …” these same motifs ,basically spirals chevrons , lozenges ,zig zags etc are seen by us all , children are forever drawing them ,and adults are forever doodling them , as “trance”  covers such a wide spectrum possibly the children and doodlers are also entranced .
Also from the initial post “Engraved on the wall were three joined spirals and these flare brightly under the glare of the sun Again, this matches trance visions of spirals and tunnels as providing access to alternative realms. “As  the three joined spirals don’t face the sun (they are also towards the end of the passage ,they never flare under the glare of the sun , any light on them is reflected . The following  phrase is pure imagination .
We don’t know the drugs of choice in the British Neolithic , the oft mentioned henbane from pottery at Balfarg is no longer accepted  and certainly have no way of knowing of physical or mental practices that may have led to any type of trance state . Could any of us recognise trance in the art of a contemporary ,what hope is there for recognising it from the Neolithic ?

Another from the original post “Some tombs were laid out to amplify the sound of a drum and achieve the exact frequency required to facilitate trance” . Percussion is a likely form of instrumentation in the period but there is no evidence of the use of any musical instruments at Newgrange .
It is not clear whether the suggestion is for the forecourt , passage or chambers being “laid out “ regardless no details are given . There have been two tests of the acoustic properties of Newgrange to my knowledge  (1996 &2001) neither of which suggested the building was “laid out to amplify the sound of a drum ‘ drums were used and it was noted that  they were very loud inside the monument but hardly audible outside which is hardly the same not that surprising and doesn’t prove drums were ever used there .
All sounds and frequencies have an effect on the listener and depending on the equipment used , resonances can be found at various frequencies which can then be believed to effect various part of the body or induce brain rhythms associated  with various  “trances  “ throughout the spectrum from waking consciousness through meditation ,hypnogogia and “peak experiences “ .In effect these same frequencies and subsequent effects can be found  ,if you use the right equipment and look hard enough  , in most enclosed spaces including your house , the local jail , hospital and probably the space station .

Coves also at Arbor Low ,Cairnpapple ,Beckhampton (where Steve Marshall is doing as you suggest ) ,Stenness , Croft Moraig & Arminghall .

Trance states , drumming , shamanism  , acoustic considerations in the architecture  ,no evidence for any these and nothing to associate  the rock art with any of them either .

George

[Anew]

tiompan, on 2 July 2011 - 21:30, said:

There are some religions /cosmologies where inebriation plays an important part but for the majority it doesn’t

Which majority ? Though drunkenness does not, (and alcohol is not, by the way, an entheogen), wine holds honored ceremonial places in both Judaism and Christianity . Alcohol is prohibited by Islam, true, and all drugs are discouraged by Buddhism . But one of the things i believe you overlook in comparing Stone-Age/Bronze-Age practices with the majority, is that the development of writing created a powerful tool which had the potential to change the cultural landscape . It is ongoing in Africa –– the introduction of scripture-based religions, (often backed by cultural/economic pressures, if not with armed force), brings or can bring, (depending on the tolerance of the invading faith), a decline in the observance of older tradition . The spread of Christianity in Europe included war, iconoclasm and atrocity ; along with older knowledge/lore of stones being replaced by tales of Sabbath Petrification . I believe that some combinations of meditation, trance-state and/or entheogenic drug use were likely to have been part of the broader Neolithic ; and note that Buddhists carry on meditation to this day .

[tiompan]

Anew, on 4 July 2011 - 01:05, said:

tiompan, on 2 July 2011 - 21:30, said:

There are some religions /cosmologies where inebriation plays an important part but for the majority it doesn’t

Which majority ? Though drunkenness does not, (and alcohol is not, by the way, an entheogen), wine holds honored ceremonial places in both Judaism and Christianity . Alcohol is prohibited by Islam, true, and all drugs are discouraged by Buddhism . But one of the things i believe you overlook in comparing Stone-Age/Bronze-Age practices with the majority, is that the development of writing created a powerful tool which had the potential to change the cultural landscape . It is ongoing in Africa –– the introduction of scripture-based religions, (often backed by cultural/economic pressures, if not with armed force), brings or can bring, (depending on the tolerance of the invading faith), a decline in the observance of older tradition . The spread of Christianity in Europe included war, iconoclasm and atrocity ; along with older knowledge/lore of stones being replaced by tales of Sabbath Petrification . I believe that some combinations of meditation, trance-state and/or entheogenic drug use were likely to have been part of the broader Neolithic ; and note that Buddhists carry on meditation to this day .

  Alcohol is an entheogen but it's ceremonial use by the judeo/christian religions is not one of inebriation ,and that is the case in the majority of religions regardless of the entheogen . We know very little about Neolithic -Bronze Age religions/cosmologies and what you believe , as in the above , is not based on evidence particularly for Newgrange which was the initial specified site .

George

[Anew]

tiompan, on 4 July 2011 - 09:57, said:

  Alcohol is an entheogen but it's ceremonial use by the judeo/christian religions is not one of inebriation ,and that is the case in the majority of religions regardless of the entheogen . We know very little about Neolithic -Bronze Age religions/cosmologies and what you believe , as in the above , is not based on evidence particularly for Newgrange which was the initial specified site .

George

In my experience, (for what it's worth), alcohol was no entheogen ; but mescaline was . I observe that your statement "Alcohol is an entheogen but it's ceremonial use by the judeo/christian religions is not one of inebriation" reveals a misunderstanding, (or at least a very loose interpretation), of the term ––

Quote

entheogen |enˈthēəˌjen; -jən|

noun
a chemical substance, typically of plant origin, that is ingested to produce a nonordinary state of consciousness for religious or spiritual purposes.

DERIVATIVES
entheogenic |enˌthēəˈjenik| adjective

ORIGIN 1970s: from Greek, literally ‘becoming divine within’ ; coined by an informal committee studying the inebriants of shamans.

~ from the New Oxford American Dictionary

–– that it is not the simple ceremonial use of a substance that makes it entheogenic, but its, ("God inside us," en "in, within," theo "god, divine," -gen "creates, generates"), effect on the mind . This effect requires a nonordinary state of consciousness, by whatever word one chooses . It is true that a small amount of wine with the communion wafer/bread has ritual significance, and will give some people a warm happy feeling which would reinforce this within their minds . Thus its use in that context would be entheogenic to the extent that God is contained within (or accurately described by) the scripture, and manifests him-/her-/it-/them- self as an ethanol buzz ; or to the extent that this is believed . Alcohol is a depressant which tends to make people feel, (at first), as though the harvest has just been brought in, we are content, life seems bountiful . It's a good mix with a communion ceremony, so long as the amount consumed is small and the ceremony relatively brief –– so long as people disperse before their mood shifts .

I hold it as axiomatic that a true entheogen needs no religious backdrop to induce/conduct spiritual perception in the user . I believe, (unfortunately without experience), that such entheogens as fly agaric (Amanita muscaria), and liberty cap (Psilocybe semilanceata), were much more likely than alcohol to have been used during the European Neolithic and Bronze Age . However, i imagine these are not a comfortable fit with religions of scripture, as they may cause the user to perceive things which are 'outside the (scriptural) box', individualized, and difficult to put into words . This would be (philosophically) diametrically opposed to scriptural faith, which seeks to fit spirituality into universalized verbal containers . I feel that it is because written religion complements written law and centralized power that the faiths of scripture form a majority of the surviving major religions . Comparison of such a roster with practices in the Neolithic and Bronze Age is flawed at best, and should be limited to those areas where writing was also present .

You cite a lack of evidence . I prefer, (in an arena where evidence is scarce), to consider all that can be inferred from what evidence and tradition remains –– so long as it is not contradicted by other evidence . There is also no evidence that the designs of Newgrange, (the Brú na Boinne, and the broader cultural milieu of the time), were unassociated with nonordinary states of consciousness ; or that these did not involve meditation, chanting, drumming, polyrhythm, spinning, trance states and/or entheogenic drug use .

[tiompan]

Anew, on 4 July 2011 - 17:56, said:

tiompan, on 4 July 2011 - 09:57, said:

  Alcohol is an entheogen but it's ceremonial use by the judeo/christian religions is not one of inebriation ,and that is the case in the majority of religions regardless of the entheogen . We know very little about Neolithic -Bronze Age religions/cosmologies and what you believe , as in the above , is not based on evidence particularly for Newgrange which was the initial specified site .

George

In my experience, (for what it's worth), alcohol was no entheogen ; but mescaline was . I observe that your statement "Alcohol is an entheogen but it's ceremonial use by the judeo/christian religions is not one of inebriation" reveals a misunderstanding, (or at least a very loose interpretation), of the term ––

Quote

entheogen |enˈthēəˌjen; -jən|

noun
a chemical substance, typically of plant origin, that is ingested to produce a nonordinary state of consciousness for religious or spiritual purposes.

DERIVATIVES
entheogenic |enˌthēəˈjenik| adjective

ORIGIN 1970s: from Greek, literally ‘becoming divine within’ ; coined by an informal committee studying the inebriants of shamans.

~ from the New Oxford American Dictionary

–– that it is not the simple ceremonial use of a substance that makes it entheogenic, but its, ("God inside us," en "in, within," theo "god, divine," -gen "creates, generates"), effect on the mind . This effect requires a nonordinary state of consciousness, by whatever word one chooses . It is true that a small amount of wine with the communion wafer/bread has ritual significance, and will give some people a warm happy feeling which would reinforce this within their minds . Thus its use in that context would be entheogenic to the extent that God is contained within (or accurately described by) the scripture, and manifests him-/her-/it-/them- self as an ethanol buzz ; or to the extent that this is believed . Alcohol is a depressant which tends to make people feel, (at first), as though the harvest has just been brought in, we are content, life seems bountiful . It's a good mix with a communion ceremony, so long as the amount consumed is small and the ceremony relatively brief –– so long as people disperse before their mood shifts .

I hold it as axiomatic that a true entheogen needs no religious backdrop to induce/conduct spiritual perception in the user . I believe, (unfortunately without experience), that such entheogens as fly agaric (Amanita muscaria), and liberty cap (Psilocybe semilanceata), were much more likely than alcohol to have been used during the European Neolithic and Bronze Age . However, i imagine these are not a comfortable fit with religions of scripture, as they may cause the user to perceive things which are 'outside the (scriptural) box', individualized, and difficult to put into words . This would be (philosophically) diametrically opposed to scriptural faith, which seeks to fit spirituality into universalized verbal containers . I feel that it is because written religion complements written law and centralized power that the faiths of scripture form a majority of the surviving major religions . Comparison of such a roster with practices in the Neolithic and Bronze Age is flawed at best, and should be limited to those areas where writing was also present .

You cite a lack of evidence . I prefer, (in an arena where evidence is scarce), to consider all that can be inferred from what evidence and tradition remains –– so long as it is not contradicted by other evidence . There is also no evidence that the designs of Newgrange, (the Brú na Boinne, and the broader cultural milieu of the time), were unassociated with nonordinary states of consciousness ; or that these did not involve meditation, chanting, drumming, polyrhythm, spinning, trance states and/or entheogenic drug use .

Ethyl alcohol is considered an entheogen by most of  those who adopted the term , ,(btw  not a committee solely concerned with  shamanism , religious visions were also on the agenda . think Dionysus  your experience notwithstanding ).   I am perfectly aware of the source of the term and where it is applicable . I didn’t  describe the use of wine in the Judaeo /Christian tradition as being entheogenic but ceremonial but that doesn’t mean that wine is not also entheogenic . Entheogens are used within  and without organised religion .Humans and other animals like to get high regardless of  their beliefs or lack of them , there is a huge amount of what gets called entheogens consumed daily it doesn’t mean there is a religious or spiritual dimension to this .For some there might be but it is usually for kicks al a pranksters and not a repeat of the  “Good Friday experiment “ . The same might apply to the Neolithic and Bronze Age , there seems to be evidence for alcohol (I don’t drink alcohol , or hardly ever so it’s not a case of personal taste here ) but none for amanita or anything else that used to be termed psychedelic which is probably the term of choice for  those who enjoyed that experience , entheogen  is for wimps . As in most cases it is very difficult  to prove that some effect was due to some cause  The argument that because there is a lack of evidence for something means it is still a possibility isn’t too strong  ,why not admit we just don’t know , otherwise you can suggest  anything that may reflect your prejudices i.e. you can’t prove  aliens ,alcohol , snake worship , over eating , cannibalism , etc were not the cause but if you propose they were then some evidence might be expected .

George

[Anew]

tiompan, on 4 July 2011 - 19:04, said:

Ethyl alcohol is considered an entheogen by most of  those who adopted the term , ,(btw  not a committee solely concerned with  shamanism , religious visions were also on the agenda . think Dionysus  your experience notwithstanding ).   I am perfectly aware of the source of the term and where it is applicable . I didn’t  describe the use of wine in the Judaeo /Christian tradition as being entheogenic but ceremonial but that doesn’t mean that wine is not also entheogenic . Entheogens are used within  and without organised religion .Humans and other animals like to get high regardless of  their beliefs or lack of them , there is a huge amount of what gets called entheogens consumed daily it doesn’t mean there is a religious or spiritual dimension to this .For some there might be but it is usually for kicks al a pranksters and not a repeat of the  “Good Friday experiment “ . The same might apply to the Neolithic and Bronze Age , there seems to be evidence for alcohol (I don’t drink alcohol , or hardly ever so it’s not a case of personal taste here ) but none for amanita or anything else that used to be termed psychedelic which is probably the term of choice for  those who enjoyed that experience , entheogen  is for wimps . As in most cases it is very difficult  to prove that some effect was due to some cause  The argument that because there is a lack of evidence for something means it is still a possibility isn’t too strong  ,why not admit we just don’t know , otherwise you can suggest  anything that may reflect your prejudices i.e. you can’t prove  aliens ,alcohol , snake worship , over eating , cannibalism , etc were not the cause but if you propose they were then some evidence might be expected .

George

My hunch is that Dionysus had origins outside of grapes & wine .

Quote

Dionysus was the god of the grape harvest, winemaking and wine, of ritual madness and ecstasy in Greek mythology. His name in Linear B tablets shows he was worshipped from c. 1500—1100 BC by Mycenean Greeks: other traces of Dionysian-type cult have been found in ancient Minoan Crete. His origins are uncertain, and his cults took many forms; some are described by ancient sources as Thracian, others as Greek. In some cults, he arrives from the east, as an Asiatic foreigner; and in others, from Ethiopia in the South. He is a god of epiphany, "the god that comes", and his "foreignness" as an arriving outsider-god may be inherent and essential to his cults. He is a major, popular figure of Greek mythology and religion, and is included in some lists of the twelve Olympians. His festivals were the driving force behind the development of Greek theater.

The earliest cult images of Dionysus show a mature male, bearded and robed. He holds a fennel staff, tipped with a pine-cone and known as a thyrsus.



Etymology

The name Dionysos is of uncertain significance. The dio- element has been associated since antiquity with Zeus (genitive Dios). The earliest attested form of the name is Mycenaean Greek di-wo-nu-so, written in Linear B syllabic script, presumably for /Diwo(h)nūsos/, found on two tablets at Mycenaean Pylos and dated to the 12th or 13th century BC.

Later variants include Dionūsos and Diōnūsos in Boeotia; Dien(n)ūsos in Thessaly; Deonūsos and Deunūsos in Ionia; and Dinnūsos in Aeolia, besides other variants. A Dio- prefix is found in other names, such as that of the Dioscures, and may derive from Dios, the genitive of the name of Zeus.

Janda (2010, following Peters 1989) sees the verbal stem of diemai "to chase, hurry, impel". The second element -nūsos is associated with Mount Nysa, the birthplace of the god in Greek mythology, where he was nursed by nymphs (the Nysiads), but according to Pherecydes of Syros, nũsa was an archaic word for "tree".

The cult of Dionysus was closely associated with trees, specifically the fig tree, and some of his bynames exhibit this, such as Endendros "he in the tree" or Dendritēs, "he of the tree". Peters suggests the original meaning as "he who runs among the trees", or that of a "runner in the woods".




Parallels with Christianity

The earliest discussions of mythological parallels between Dionysus and the figure of the Christ in Christian theology can be traced to Friedrich Hölderlin, whose identification of Dionysus with Christ is most explicit in Brod und Wein (1800–1801) and Der Einzige (1801–1803). Modern scholars such as Martin Hengel, Barry Powell, and Peter Wick, among others, argue that Dionysian religion and Christianity have notable parallels.

They point to the symbolism of wine and the importance it held in the mythology surrounding both Dionysus and Jesus Christ; though, Wick argues that the use of wine symbolism in the Gospel of John, including the story of the Marriage at Cana at which Jesus turns water into wine, was intended to show Jesus as superior to Dionysus.

Additionally, some scholars of comparative mythology argue that both Dionysus and Jesus represent the "dying-and-returning god" mythological archetype. Other elements, such as the celebration by a ritual meal of bread and wine, also have parallels.[44] Powell, in particular, argues precursors to the Christian notion of transubstantiation can be found in Dionysian religion.

Another parallel can be seen in The Bacchae wherein Dionysus appears before King Pentheus on charges of claiming divinity is compared to the New Testament scene of Jesus being interrogated by Pontius Pilate.

E. Kessler in a symposium Pagan Monotheism in the Roman Empire, Exeter, 17–20 July 2006, argues that Dionysian cult had developed into strict monotheism by the 4th century CE; together with Mithraism and other sects the cult formed an instance of "pagan monotheism" in direct competition with Early Christianity during Late Antiquity.



~ selected from Wikipedia on Dionysus

A mature male, bearded & robed, sounds like the archetypical image of a shaman . A little research showed that it was not garden variety fennel which made his staff, but "giant fennel", (a different genus), which grows in woodland and shrubland and dies back to the ground each year . Though it's explained as a mocking gesture on the part of Titans in legend, this trait seems of a piece with his connection to resurrection –– a connection which might also point toward the fly agaric, (if these were used for communing with the dead or in ceremonies intended to bring the reincarnation of an ancestor within a newborn, and if this was known to or practiced by those who perceived this Deity, or participated in the development of his legend) . The fig tree, especially the Sacred Fig, is no casual player in ancient lore, but an exceptionally long-lived plant which develops a hoary trunk in which some people place shrines and others worship by walking in circles ; (bringing fairy rings to my mind, though the fly agaric itself may not share a range with this tree) . His status as an outsider God, arriving from afar, also extends the possibility that he was based upon something borrowed from another culture .

I recall having read that the Bronze Age in Greece brought with it broad deforestation . The same might also be said of Syria, Israel and Jordan, where there are an abundance of ruins and dry arroyos in the desert . Such might have brought climate changes that pushed the fly agaric out of the region, (if and to the extent it was once native) . Over time, i imagine Dionysus may have evolved from their shaman God of Amanita muscaria, (if he was once this), into a familiar role as their party God of grapes and wine, (amongst other things), within their pantheon . It is true that Dionysian monotheism took root, but this seems to have been in response to extreme stress during the decline of the Roman Empire, (which might, understandably, have driven people to drinking) .

I have been drunk enough to see double, and there is nothing in my experience with this to indicate to me that alcohol deserves to be called an entheogen –– your last response notwithstanding . It can, (though i have not experienced this), produce withdrawal hallucinations in alcoholics, but that's another matter . Entheogen is the best word i have learned in a long time, i say . I believe that these, (the fly agaric and the liberty cap), were likely to have been integral to the belief system of much of ancient Europe and temperate Asia . And if they are anything like what i experienced with mescaline, i hold them to be a truer basis for theology than the Christian Bible . I accept the term psychedelic ––

Quote

psychedelic |ˌsīkəˈdelik|
adjective
relating to or denoting drugs (esp. LSD) that produce hallucinations and apparent expansion of consciousness.
• relating to or denoting a style of rock music originating in the mid-1960s, characterized by musical experimentation and drug-related lyrics.
• denoting or having an intense, vivid color or a swirling abstract pattern : a psychedelic T-shirt.

noun
a psychedelic drug.
DERIVATIVES

psychedelically |-ik(ə)lē| |ˈsaɪkəˈdɛlək(ə)li| adverb

ORIGIN 1950s: formed irregularly from psyche 1 + Greek dēlos ‘clear, manifest’ + -ic .



~ from the New Oxford American Dictionary

–– but feel its use has been broadened beyond the original meaning . Still in my opinion, the carvings at Newgrange may be examples of psychedelic art in that they may have been intended to be viewed while in a non-normal state of mind which may have involved (yes) entheogens . My main objection to the word hallucinogen is what i see as an implication that what is perceived on them is not real . Anything that is perceived must to some extent be real –– but an hallucination, by its nature, does not have the physical reality perceived .

[tiompan]

“A mature male, bearded & robed, sounds like the archetypical image of a shaman .”

Sounds like a typical description of a male Greek from the period ,why leap to that conclusion ?

“the carvings at Newgrange may be examples of psychedelic art in that they may have been intended to be viewed while in a non-normal state of mind which may have involved (yes) entheogens “

Three mays in that idea , it sounds like that is what you would like them to be . With no evidence for any of  the mays why not admit that there could be many other possible explanations and some with fewer conditionals .

The term entheogen is loaded in favour of  Wasson et al’s agenda ,it may be helpful in describing some uses of drugs but it is doesn’t take into consideration the most  common reasons for ingestion i.e. pleasure and escape . Humans love drugs and there is no reason that they were not in use in the Irish or British Neolithic  but there is no evidence for them whether used for pleasure or any other more esoteric reason/excuse .
George

[Anew]

tiompan, on 5 July 2011 - 10:02, said:

“A mature male, bearded & robed, sounds like the archetypical image of a shaman .”

Sounds like a typical description of a male Greek from the period ,why leap to that conclusion ?

I leaped in the direction i had hoped to land !-) ; though in this case, the leap wasn't as far i'd pictured . Here is a link to a photo of a Greek kylix, (a form of bowl/cup), from about 480 bce . Dionysus is on the right in the medallion/tondo, (round image at center) ; and though (being a Demigod) his robes are the best represented, they also do look quite Greek . Given the date and the age of the legend at that point, it is unsurprising that they would ; thus i see nothing in the image to refute the idea that this Olympic character was based upon the shaman archetype, (with what that may imply) . The image does constrain the hypothesis –– it must allow for that type of image at that time ; and i feel it does .

This kylix helps flesh out the character and milieu . Dionysus appears to carry a cutting from a Sacred fig tree ; and to wear a crown of same . He has an untrimmed lock behind his ear, (a bit of exotica which none of the other figures share, perhaps one of his foreign customs) . He is served by a beardless youth whose revealing clothing may sexualize that role . No women seem to be present, but surrounding the medallion are up to thirteen pairs of men and two musicians, (or a musician and an actor/speaker) . Some of these pairs are two beardless men, in others, one wears a beard while the other does not ; no pairs are both bearded except for the musicians . All the faces are shown in profile except for the youth in the medallion, (who watches his work) –– and one bearded character at the bottom, (imaginably the artist or sponsor), who looks at the viewer, smiles, and appears to speak in greeting ; |:-D} . The youth pours from an oenochoe, (pouring vessel), into Dionysus' kantharos, (drinking cup) . His kantharos was said never to be empty, and it is interesting that at this point in the legend, (at least), he is shown taking a (non-magical) refill ; this may indicate some de-mystification of him or of his drink .

One oenochoe from an earlier period, link, is worth a look as it shows a number of things which may point in the direction of a broader preexisting culture : A form of curvilinear left-facing swastika appears, resembling to some extent those on Ilkley Moor, England and Sellero, Italy . . . Also present are diamonds in (cut) groups of three (two triangles and a diamond), and uncut groups of four . Some of the groups of three have diamonds within them, others dots . { The triangular grouping of dots is an element which also occurs in a Scottish stone ball with design similarities to Newgrange ; and liberally on this Mesopotamian carving of a bull from 3000 bce } . . . The oenochoe also has a griffin . These are said to be kings of all beasts (air & ground) and guardians of the divine –– any secret  psychedelic/entheogenic ingredient in a ceremonial wine might, (imaginably), warrant guarding with griffins . One or more wild goats are also present . Although it is a beautiful animal, i know of no connection in lore between it and either grapes or wine ; though it may have been applied as a charm to invoke the male's fecundity, or simply at an artist's preference . However, the goat is linked to the god Pan, who surfaces ~100-150 years after this particular oenochoe was made . Pan is indeed linked to fecundity, and considered the "god of the wild, shepherds and flocks, nature, of mountain wilds, hunting and rustic music", (as well as companion to the nymphs) ; and… the god of "fields, groves, and wooded glens" . Though i have not found it mentioned, this might connect Pan and/or the goat symbol with either the liberty cap, (a pasture mushroom), or again the fly agaric . . . Perhaps significantly, several rosettes of two concentric rings surrounded by a ring of dots also appear, and though there are stylistic differences between these, they bear enough similarity to those from a number of British/Irish stone carvings to deserve mention . Here one can add, to the question of whether the abstract carvings in the Isles were psychedelic, that of whether alcohol (mead, beer, wine) was a component of whatever entheogenic blend may have been used . ( I restate my opinion that alcohol was not itself necessary, and by itself would not have been adequate. )

Turning now to the kantharos, one Attican example (from about 780 bce) has a number of features which seem to link it to the broader milieu . Left reaching swastikas, (two, possibly four), are prominent in the pattern around its middle . These are accented by grouped chevrons whose orientation is up-down, (more completely and with more emphasis, up) . In doing so, these chevrons are not paralleling the arms of the swastikas, making this choice orientation seem symbolic . Flanking the swastikas are herringbone patterns with a vertical, (2 up, 1 +1/2 +1/2 down), orientation –– again, the emphasis is upward . . . For more, and distant, examples of stacked chevrons one can consider these (one, two) Mongolian deer stones ; again the orientation is up . Deer stones are, (if i have the story right), believed to be funerary monuments depicting the flying-deer-borne ascent of a soul to the above-world –– they're also quite beautiful, as is the Mongol landscape . . . It is said that the serpentine design on this kantharos indicates that it was a "funerary present" . Such would further the similarity between this and those deer stones .

Looking to the Brú Na Boinne, the serpent or serpentine form is present at Knowth, near Newgrange, on this stone and this one . At Newgrange proper, (also a funerary monument), herringbone patterns appear here, and on the lintel above a basin . . . { Question, could that have been a 'singing bowl' ? Could stone do that for them ? } . . . Returning to the kantharos once more, the central design on its belly, between the swastikas and the herringbone, is an eight petaled flower . I know of none, but imagine this may have been linked to the cardinal and inter-cardinal directions –– that the flower itself is both fictitious and charmed . Grouped between the petals are eight triangular trinities of dots . . . Back to Newgrange –– this photo shows a triangular trinity of spirals, (together with a diamond and herringbone) . The triangular geometry between the spirals differs from the dot trinities of the kantharos, (which were roughly equilateral) . On this Newgrange stone, their centers approximate a 7:11:13 triangle, (something which may have held significance in the Isles) . This stone holds, (among other things), a trinity of spirals in a rather isosceles geometry, as does this one . It is not impossible (to my mind) that art which was psychedelic, (if this at Newgrange was, as i believe it may have been), could also have incorporated symbolism which had importance outside the realm of psychedelia .

tiompan, on 5 July 2011 - 10:02, said:

“the carvings at Newgrange may be examples of psychedelic art in that they may have been intended to be viewed while in a non-normal state of mind which may have involved (yes) entheogens “

Three mays in that idea , it sounds like that is what you would like them to be . With no evidence for any of the mays why not admit that there could be many other possible explanations and some with fewer conditionals .

It is what i would like them to be . No evidence ? No hard evidence –– no samples put under a microscope revealing an elevated presence of the spores, (that i'm aware of) . Circumstantial evidence, indicators, possibility… me thinks so . Mays ? See above . There are other possible explanations . There .

Fewer conditionals…… ;-\ I've heard of Occham's Razor, i find it limited . I expect that it works best to explain what someone would have done when facing a straightforward task of no symbolic importance . Religion (on the other hand) tends to get complicated, making the simpler solution (beyond a point) the less likely . Look at the Greco-Roman Pantheon(s), there was all kinds of intrigue going on . The Egyptians were elaborate, and much of that survived . The Chinese can be elaborate ; doing the feng shui, burying clay armies . Unless one believes that what was going on at the Brú was perfunctory, i don't see how the simplest answers have the advantage . The simplest may be true, but their probability shouldn't be considered on the basis of being the simplest story to fit surviving evidence ; but rather on being the best fit . I also feel that once the Urkultur was established, most developments used what came before as a point of reference . People could embrace or reject the past, they could modify what they inherited from it, add and subtract . But to simply forget the past and start fresh would have been very difficult . That's one reason why i look to scattered places to find threads of commonality . The answer with the highest probability of being correct would do so, (i believe) .

tiompan, on 5 July 2011 - 10:02, said:

The term entheogen is loaded in favour of Wasson et al’s agenda ,it may be helpful in describing some uses of drugs but it is doesn’t take into consideration the most common reasons for ingestion i.e. pleasure and escape . Humans love drugs and there is no reason that they were not in use in the Irish or British Neolithic but there is no evidence for them whether used for pleasure or any other more esoteric reason/excuse .
George

Robert Gordon Wasson, as i understand it, found a career in the pursuit of money (with J.P.Morgan!) to be less attractive than one in pursuit of spirituality through mycology . Here's to him

Quote

Well, I wish some of you would tell me the brand of whiskey that Grant drinks. I would like to send a barrel of it to my other generals.

~ Abraham Lincoln

[tiompan]

There is a view that  shamen are ubiquitous in which case any historical adult depiction could potentially be a shaman.

Motifs found on rocks and other media from all periods , places and peoples have similarities and when ethnographers enquire of contemporay examples they discover many different meanings (and sometimes none) are attached to the same symbol .

I think you might like “Materials for the Study of Social Symbolism in Ancient & Tribal Art: A Record of Tradition and Continuity. “ by Carl Schuster . If you ahvn't already come across it .

“Religion (on the other hand) tends to get complicated, making the simpler solution (beyond a point) the less likely”

I agree , so why universalise and claim symbols that are common to all ,including children who have never been inebriated and are probably not shamen , have such a simple all encompassing explanation ?

“Robert Gordon Wasson, as i understand it, found a career in the pursuit of money (with J.P.Morgan!) to be less attractive than one in pursuit of spirituality through mycology .”

  Most find  hobbies to be more attractive than their work but Wasson was clearly  happy and competent in his job , he retired from banking aged 65 .

George

[Anew]

tiompan, on 6 July 2011 - 09:47, said:

There is a view that  shamen are ubiquitous in which case any historical adult depiction could potentially be a shaman.

I don't think this guy was a shaman, though like many people he may have, "known a thing or two" . My feeling is that the man or woman found (buried or depicted) in laboring or traveling clothes is less likely to have been a shaman than the one in robes ; (particularly if this stands out in company) . Classical Greek society was robe-friendly/required, (at least for high social purposes), and i had not considered that before making a claim ; (as you noted) .

tiompan, on 6 July 2011 - 09:47, said:

Motifs found on rocks and other media from all periods , places and peoples have similarities and when ethnographers enquire of contemporay examples they discover many different meanings (and sometimes none) are attached to the same symbol .

I think you might like “Materials for the Study of Social Symbolism in Ancient & Tribal Art: A Record of Tradition and Continuity. “ by Carl Schuster . If you ahvn't already come across it .

It's complicated . Current inquiries are made some thousands of years beyond the time period(s) in question –– the more time for symbolic languages to diverge or dissolve . There are syllables in Gaelic singing which have lost their meaning, assuming that they had had one . . . I believe that technological advancement and changing environments are the primary accelerators of cultural change ; and that to the extent that these are stable, the effects of distance, enemies, allies, isolation, trade would work more slowly . . . Still, obviously, i think there is more to be gained in comparing similar designs than lost –– as the theme attached to a symbol may be retained even after its forms and applications have moved apart . . . Thanks for the recommendation .

tiompan, on 6 July 2011 - 09:47, said:

“Religion (on the other hand) tends to get complicated, making the simpler solution (beyond a point) the less likely”

I agree , so why universalise and claim symbols that are common to all ,including children who have never been inebriated and are probably not shamen , have such a simple all encompassing explanation ?

I say i'm universalizing loosely –– i state that there's a possibility of a commonality and that that commonality involved meditation/trance-states and/or entheogenic drug use ; along with the 'flood plain' of a symbolic language, within which different societies might vary individual symbols' application, meaning, form and frequency –– to a point . I like the possibility, and hope it was their truth ; and having taken an entheogen can tell you that it was not simple . But i have no megalithic yardstick, no scripture that every detail must conform to . . . If by children you mean the youth pouring Dionysus his drink on the Greek cup –– one of Earth's great civilizations put him there, just as they put those symbols on that pottery . Their views of what was proper were their own to have . I said what i saw . Does it make me culpable to suggest that a lad may have been pouring wine mixed with a psychedelic ? I don't think so . Is it possible the situation may have evolved to wine alone by that point from an earlier, more powerfully entheogenic one ? Yes . It is also possible, (i don't think probable), that it had always been wine alone . I'm concerned that your feelings about entheogens may be simpler than the subject itself .

tiompan, on 6 July 2011 - 09:47, said:

“Robert Gordon Wasson, as i understand it, found a career in the pursuit of money (with J.P.Morgan!) to be less attractive than one in pursuit of spirituality through mycology .”

  Most find  hobbies to be more attractive than their work but Wasson was clearly  happy and competent in his job , he retired from banking aged 65 .

George

A short bio . I'm glad to have read this now . Obviously, i would have phrased things differently, before, if i had . I still like him .

[tiompan]

Apart from the words of the psalms any decoration or oranmenation does not have any meaning , it is simply decoration .
It does sound wonderful though .

  By children ,I meant simply children , look at their scribbles , like adult doodles they consist of the same motifs as found in megalithic art .

George .

[Anew]

doh… *lowers head*

Well, thanks for the exchange . I disagree but wish you well . From the heart .

[tiompan]

Anew, on 6 July 2011 - 19:19, said:

doh… *lowers head*

Well, thanks for the exchange . I disagree but wish you well . From the heart .

Same to you .

George

[kevin.b]

May I add in some applause ,for the two contenders????
Both are obviously passionate and determined.
I declare this contest an honourable draw.
It was a pleasure reading both of Your posts, thank You both.
Kevin

[Anew]

Thank you also, Kevin . It's good to have you in the audience .