40 replies to this topic

[Nigel]

Firefly, I think we'll have to agree to disagree about magnetism. The earth is one big magnet with lines of force, but I can't convince myself that megalith locations are connected to them unless  either it is shown that they are actually aligned along them or that they cause a compass needle to flicker.
However, I certainly do agree that "there's a feeling...." around megaliths. Now, that's a really good topic to start. We've all felt it, surely? So what on earth is it?

[fireflite]

I agree   :confused:

[fireflite]

I visited a relatively unknown site in Ireland called Fourknocks, with my wife and some of our friends.  The woman several fields over from the site, who held the key, was nowhere to be found. So we decided to chance it and headed to the mound anyway. On the way, across several fields, my wife and several others kept complaining about some sort of whistling or high pitched humming sound that the rest of us couldn't hear. we figured it was they're earrings or something (not sure about the lad who said he could hear it too!). We reached the mound and our "guide" tells us that we could get into one of the mounds by sliding under the gate at the entrance into the mound. The same lad mentioned earlier almost got stuck halfway in but just made it. Anyway, we left the mound and headed back across the field beneath a clear blue sky. Except for the small ominous looking black cloud heading directly for us! In seconds we were all drenched and the sky was blue again. We all felt as though, by sneaking into the mound, we had offended somebody and were given a good scolding. I think that there's somethings that can't be explained by science and maybe we shouldn't try...

[galician]

So, a little summer rain in Ireland can make an X-file? Perhaps in Ireland annoyed gods should punish the trespassers in any other way, to ensure that their message is understood!    
Anyway, you both are right, megaliths are somewhat "strange". Anyway, it can be explained better by Psychology than by any other science or pseudo-science. I've also experienced those "weird feeling" you stated, but I have my own theories about it. First, most of the megaliths I know are in quite lonely places, in the top of a hill, or in the middle of a forest, and usually, you're the only person in the surroundings. Silence takes also a great part in that feeling: no car noises, no loud music, nobody talking around, only Nature and its sounds... Sometimes, I even avoid shouting, when visiting these megaliths! Everybody knows that they are approaching to something very, very old, something that was already there before the oldest historical record. And those dark entries, and dark chambers...
Perhaps if they were located in the middle of a city park, with children playing and shouting, families having their lunches around them, and brilliant neon lights to iluminate the dark places, that "weird feeling" would fade away. Fortunately, they're not, so we can enjoy that feeling of being "trespassers"!

[Nigel]

When I first posed the question I was smiling to myself and was thinking of writing:
"My own opinion is the same as Galician's, and different from Fireflite's and Irish Stone's" even though none of you had yet replied.
From the previous threads I suspect that we currently have a nice even spread on this board...one side is highly receptive to the idea of there being something beyond science, and the other side(sadly for us), aren't.
Dragon lines are fun! How I wish I could think they existed. But I'm stuck with a problem: there's no reputable evidence, merely the ramshackle evidence of dragon line "peddlars" as Galician calls them. And the same goes for so many other "alternative" concepts.
The terms "laboratory tested" and "independently verified" are quite useful ones if one is wishing to find the truth and when they are absent then the suspicion must arise that one is finding the truth one wishes.

[IrishStones]

I guess I should have posted my last post here! I just got to reading this thread, and my post was about feelings I had WITHOUT knowing I was In an "Important Place" or in the presence of anything out of the ordinary run of things.

Absolutely psychology plays a big part. Archeologists are always saying how they are affected on a daily basis by their own wishes and what they "expect". This is the danger, not looking for something no one has "proven". To look for things expecting an outcome is useless. You always will find what you are looking for. But to be discouraging to anyone with an idea without "proof" is ludicrous and dangerous. The future of archeology, ask any archeologist, relies on looking at things a different way. I have a good friend who is an archeologist dealing with local native tribes. There is carbon dating proving occupation 12,000 BP. He was saying the artifacts in Mexico, dated to 25, 000 BP and those here, will require several more independent finds and much more work to be "proven". He estimates, I think I said elsewhere, at least 25 more years to be "Accepted". He said the belittling of creative thinking comes from the number of new-agers with agendas, from feminism to spiritual "quests" not founded on anything but a personal belief. He said the most extreme of these have contributed to a shutoff to any openness in the archeological community, at least on a public level. He said privately, archeologists do think this way (creatively, postulating theory) all the time, but would be without a job if they ever voiced their theories. He said they will leave it to other academic disciplines to sort out the theories on domestic Man.

I suppose the Chinese could have been thousands of years ahead of the rest of the world in scientific ideas. That's what we were all taught in school. I think it is interesting that you guys want to ignore scientific developments such as theirs in the interest of  an Anglo-centric view of science.

Wait, I thought this was a thread about feelings at the sites, not another place to promote the "proof please, you sniveling litte idiots" responses

I am smiling, truly I am because I respect both of you, Nigel and Galician, but I am annoyed that we are asking so few questions of each other and stopping speculation by demeaning the value of  exploratory thought., at any level.

More than "weird feelings" which is a vague phrase a bit too loaded with contempt, I'd like to know real "feelings"  where was the wind coming from, what was the sense of climate? What made this place different from the next knoll over? Serious reportage can be almost anything as long as we keep from censoring each other.

I have not been able to find a single actual Chinese geomantic reading of any place. I'm guessing I am in new territory. People have  "referred" to fengshui, but I have seen no actual "use" of feng shui anywhere. The references I've found have all been druidic, and I don't get them at all, it isn't the same thing by a long shot.  Early Chinese geomancy did not rely on magnetic fields or direction, Only on landscape formations. There has been some reporting of this, and I've gathered some information from pictures. Also the Neolithic Chinese divided the sky into four constellation groups and they had something to do with monument placement too.

Questions... Fireflite, since you are in what I have always said is the most amazing landscape in America, maybe you have some stories. Do you know anything about the Pueblos, the most amazing of the native trbes in my opinion?

I read they had a term for this "wind/water" thing PO-WA-HA which means "wind-water-breath". According to Swentzell, "It is the breath which flows without distinction through the entirety of animate and inanimate existence". This is identical to the notion of the flow of  "chi" in Asian cultures. It is this chi, which can be felt as energy which converges, flows away, or is contained. Other Native American words for this are "osena" in Iroquois, "waken" or "wakonda" in Sioux, "maspe" by the Crow.  There are identical notions among the Australian Aborigines.

In a Pueblo woman's account of the site of Tsukumu, she described the wind and the "flow of the hills below" from the sacred shrine. She said like other sacred spots, it was visually disappointing, but they were places chosen because they were "places of access to the underworld from which the Pueblo People emerged. It is the doorway of communication between the many simultaneous levels of Pueblo existence. Tsukumu allows for the flow of energy between this plane of reality and other concurrent realities...."

This is a belief shared by many cultures, before the spread of Christianity, all over the world. It was the "world religion" so to speak. If so, then how can we, though unbelievers, help from feeling the power of these places.  I'm guessing we are swept in to a perfectly explainable altered consciousness in the power of something... I just want to imagine it has to do with the landscape, and a highly probable philosophy we can discover, if we look at the evidence.

[IrishStones]

I'm erasing a double post.

By the way, Fireflite, I wanted to say that I have had some experiences like yours too. Just a little too strange, too often, to be mere coincidence.

[galician]

Oh, please, IrishStones, don't get annoyed with Nigel and me, we're not laughing at your theories.
Look, you're right in some points: without a bit of imagination, science would not develope as it did. Even in Archaeorlogy we have some examples. Think about Schliemann: in a time when everybody was sure that Homer's poems were only fiction, he believed them, and found Troy and Mycenae following the clues that Homer gave him. Of course, when he went to Turkey and started digging, everybody told him that he would find nothing, because there was no "evidence" that Troy and its war were true... And for many other inventions and discoveries... Well, what if the Wright Brothers had acepted that "men can not fly"? Or if Columbus believed what he had been told, "Earth is flat, and if you sail to the West, you'll fall off the edge"?
No, that's not what I'm criticizing, and I'm sure that Nigel will agree.
But we should be very careful when talking about all this stuff. We must separate what is "real" science from what are, nowadays, only attractive theories.
Unfortunately, those "alternative" sciences are discredited by a history full of swindlers and cheaters. We understand that all those theories are very attractive. Even Nigel hoped that "Dragon lines" were true! And that's the danger, when we hope so much that something was true, it's difficult to keep a "scientific" mind, sometimes we see what we want to see. And sometimes, unscrupulous people took advantage of this.
Anyway, even the Roman Church (which is a not very scientific organisation), when is deciding is somebody was a Saint, has the "Devil's advocate" to search for faults in the life of the candidate, and to question his "miracles". Let us, Nigel and me, be your "Devil's advocate". You're questioning official science. Well, we're "questioning your questioning". If you can support your theory with evidence, and we can not support our questioning to your theory with a stronger evidence, then your theory becomes science. It's so easy, isn't it?
But this thread was about megaliths and feelings when visiting them, so... Think about your favourite megalith. Then imagine it in its real place, and think about the feelings you experienced when visiting it. And then, imagine it in the middle of Trafalgar Square. Would you experience the same feelings visiting it in the middle of the traffic, the noise, the lights...? Or would it lose a great deal of its mystery?

[Nigel]

Well, yes, but if I may attack my ally for a moment, just for fun, might not the loss of that feeling be attributable not only to the fact there was traffic nearby but also to the fact that the monument had been torn from it's "place". In other words, if the monument had always been in Trafalgar Square, rather than moved to there, might there not be a "feeling" despite the traffic. I suspect that's how I'd react. After all, a lump of stone won't prompt a psychological  reaction. But a lump of stone that was placed right there by ancient hands will.If this was the case with everybody, it doesn't solve the problem of psychology versus mysterious forces, but it does narrow down the source of the feeling to being to do with our being in direct psychological/mysterious contact with something very ancient rather than being affected merely by it's physical qualities and location.
One more thing: for me, psychologically, it's size that counts (!!) What I mean is this: I'm sure I would have no "feelings" about a mini-Stonehenge, however ancient and genuine. And I suspect I wouldn't get any about a "lightweight" Stonehenge that a couple of men could have built in an afternoon. What I think I'm reacting to is the gigantic effort which is locked into the fact that such huge stones have been placed in that location. I'm therefore reacting psychologically, and being impressed subconsciously, by perceived kinetic energy...
Might I suggest (to tease the other side, since we're all friends now) that they're labelling kinetic energy as "mysterious" energy?

[IrishStones]

Galacian,

Perhaps our differing is only a matter of semantics.... I don't even know what druidic "dragon lines" are. I've heard them referred to, here in this forum, but they are not what I'm discussing. I'm talking about a natural science, well accepted by academics, based upon the healthy and aesthetic, and "something more" of what the Asians and most other cultures identify as a "true"  or real energy. This energy has been discovered to exist , and can be measured by physicists. Although newly "proved", this is a "real" science I am considering. I realize that if you have not been reading physics for the last ten or twenty years this may seem like a lot of hooey. I would have said the same a year ago myself. I'm not fond of "unfounded theory" myself. The dark side of creative thinking is the bad press really stupid stuff gets. As you say, bad experience in the past  with such nonsense has made you close-minded on the subject. I have never postulated a theory, heck, I haven't even formed the right questions. I am merely asking for site experiences from you all who have visited them.

I can't be too annoyed with you, Galacian, because you are intelligent and caring. If someone put up an idea here that I didn't like I'd probably be close-minded too. When that happens, and it will,  I will expect you to call me to task too!

Now could you be more specific about the "official science" you think I'm questioning? If I knew what you were referring to, I might be able to disagree, or relieve you of your misapprehensions. Somehow I got put in the "anti-scientific" camp, which I am definitely not a part of. I am in the "perhaps ancient humans were seeing the earth and spirit and heaven differently than we" camp. C'est, ca.

I think devil's advocate is a fine role to play, and I admire you for being that. I agree completely that this is a valuable part to play.

Don't hold your breath, though, I don't expect my "theory" if I ever make one up, to be provable in its entirety by "real science" in generations. My interests are too philosphical. I could make up one that "could" be proved, if I needed that ego stroking, but I'm on to bigger game.

And you've found me out. The truth be told, I have no particular feelings about ancient monuments. I feel an awe around both the big and small, just by virtue of their antiquity, and occasionally their grandeur. Size doesn't matter to me, although it does make a great first impresison. I feel much, much stronger feelings for the landscape they occupy. My specialty will probably end up being Mesolithic sites that are buried in the landscape. Another confession, I have never been to a megalith site other than Knocknarea. I have only visited mini-lith circles and burial mounds and passage tombs and gone underground in a "faerie fort". But form photos, the footprint they occupy fascinates me completely. When I see ancient megalithic pieces in a museum, such as the British Museum or the Boston Museum or the National Museum here in USA, I am impressed by the scale, and in awe. It remains to be seen, if, when I visit them in situ, I am more or less impressed. From experience with other ancient sites, I think I would actually find megaliths quite a bit more amazing in the middle of Trafalgar square. In fact, my favorite monuments, though not megaliths, are the wells, and towers and stone circles that are part of walls and houses and town squares. I've looked at knocked down dolmens in the backyard of houses and found them just as interesting as Knocknarea. And the single standing stones, or cave walls, or tomb carvings in the middle of a museum thrill me more than the "on site" works I've visited. On site, I feel somehow they are part of the natural landscape, and I take them more for granted. Perhaps this makes me ideal for the job ahead of me, I'd never thought of it before. I'm grateful to you for pointing it out.

There are two things at work here. The psychology of seeing the monument itself, and the experience of being in the place it was built. I agree with Nigel that the whole impact of place and monument is the ideal, and I'm sure you wouldn't argue that point. In situ we can speculate with some degree of authority on the reason the builders chose this site, and I hope we can eventually also speculate with some authority as to why.

One last remark to Nigel. I don't know who "the Other side" is, but I am guessing it is me. However, I don't talk about "mysterious energy" so maybe I'm reacting out of place. I have been talking all along about a kinetic energy. Scientists say this particle level energy is constant, "never dies" if you will, and circulates. What it carries of  "race memory" or "collective-unconscious" to use two acceptable terms from scientific theory, we can only speculate. Maybe nothing. Maybe this energy is simply "the life breath". You don't need a monument to stimulate it, it is around us all and everywhere. This, I suppose is mysterious to some. I never thought of it that way. I find the same "awe" in sitting under a tall tree. It has to do with nature, and Galacian is right that the more pure the nature, the more likely we are to be in tune, and not distracted by human activity. I guess I need to get out of the museums and into the field.

I feel most of the time when you guys are disagreeing with me you are actually agreeing with me, and vice-versa. I'm guessing it has to do with the differing definitions of things we have taken on as a philosophy of life in general.

Thank you both for the time you put in to this discussion.

[Arran and Emma]

I find the interaction between you guys most amusing, because you are all so passionate about what you believe in. Irish Stones, hang in there fella and keep the mind open.

It does seem that the same disagreement that was revealed in 'Why the megalithic were built' is still haunting the threads, but I suppose it would - good for you to remain on talking terms... anyway, that weird feeling...

Having studied psychology for many years, I am perfectly happy for every strange feeling, weird voice and mysterious vibe to be explained away by this science of the mind. Just remember that the brain has many uncovered levels that haven't even been scratched.

Early Summer this year, we went to the Uffington White Horse. We arrived there just as it was getting light, very early in the morning. It was heavy with impenetrable fog, really eerie and so atmospheric. Excellent, we thought, and after we parked the car we sprinted across the path and over to the horse. But it wasn't as 'fun' as we first thought. Soon after we arrived at the horse, we 'knew' we had to get back to the car.
No voices or anything like that, just a ‘weird feeling.’ We actually got back to the car faster than we went to the site, but neither of us verbalised this to one another. It was either we both got freaked out at the same time (pretty unlikely as we've been to far more isolated places in worse conditions) or we both tapped into some kind of collective unconscious that spoke the ages of power, fear, life and death and our modern ways and minds couldn't cope.

Just a thought, who knows for sure?

[Nigel]

Blimey, Irish Stones, I wish I had the nerve to tweak Galician's beard like that! I may have to stay up all night waiting for his reply.
Everything seems to be centering neatly onto a definition of "energy". This is good, because, who knows, if we agree about that then perhaps we agree about everything.
I accept that I was wrong to include you amongst "the other side who believe in mysterious energy" and indeed you have made it clear that you stand alongside me and Galician in opposing them.
And our measure of agreement goes even deeper than that:
I suggested my own reaction to megaliths was a subconscious reaction to the power involved in moving huge stones. Such a suggestion (and it's only that; I'm open to other ideas) involves psychology and physics,i.e.conventional Western science. Galician has also suggested psychology, so he also is thinking in conventional Western scientific terms.
And you, too, are talking in Western scientific terms when you talk about Kinetic energy.
Kinetic energy in conventional terms could be described as "stored enrgy" or in the case of the megaliths "stored work" In conventional terms, such energy will remain inert and for all practical purposes non-existent until such time the megalith falls down. At that moment all the energy put in by the builders is released in the form of an impact with the ground and the kinetic energy is dissipated into the earth and the air.
I'm sure you agree with that and your statement that "Scientists say this particle level energy is constant, "never dies" if you will, and circulates" is quite consistent with it.
So we're all agreed about basic Western physics. So where is the disagreement? It's this:
You say there may be something else. It's Eastern, it's not in the school physics books I read 40 years ago, nor in the more advanced ones Galician read twenty years ago. And, most worrying, it's been validated and accepted by Western science: "This energy has been discovered to exist , and can be measured by physicists. Although newly "proved", this is a "real" science"
Ici la difference.

[IrishStones]

Shiver me timbers! Nigel...
and for all us yanks: we are circling the wagons...
And yea! to having someone knowledgeable about psychology here, Aaran and Emma. Twasn't long ago that psychology was considered magic too. Freud actually mused upon the Modern view of science and stated that magic was dead in our culture, except where it exists in art. I think he might have been sad about that. His young protege certainly was inspired to go on a search for it, and contributed, for better or worse to the 20th century interest in Myth and Magic.

All hail C.G. Jung for pulling us out of our mechanical mind set, as a society, at least a little. Without him, there would be no chance for us to even have a dialogue about kinetic energy (which includes the idea of energy I am discussing) in relation to a collective unconscious. The labels vary, but the acknowledgement of some unseen level of existence has been consistant throughout most history. Only in Western Civilization has there been such effort to deny anything other than empirical "reality". Once Einstein posited the thought of matter EQUALLING energy, and vice versa, did we have any model for physics to develop upon. The quantuum physics which I bring up is only recently beginning to "prove" Einstein. I am certainly willing to accept you Westrn Science term "kinetic" energy to be a common ground. It is limited, but in the right ball park.

Nigel, I know you have begun to define this common ground in your last post, but I have to read what you said a few more times and think about it before i have the last word on this subject. Right know I'm just responding to hear the sound of my own voice.

Yes, Galician, what make you of quantuum physics? Kinetic energy? Chi? Po-wa-ha ? Is it no more useful than trying ot prove the existence for "God", another name for a rational explanation of this energy?

The "something else" of ancient Chinese thought... contemporaneous to the building of megaliths... is simply the recognition and naming of this energy which to them connected heaven and earth. An energy which can be detected on the particle level, but cannot yet be applied. The question is, can we accept that the priests and priestesses of an ancient culture could "tune in" to these energies surrounding and within all matter, at least enough to order and manipulate their sacred sites?

Is the weird feeling we are sometimes describing, our own dna reacting to the same "power"? Do we run away because we have been taught to run away from what we don't understand?

So back to the subject of this thread. What is the feeling? Dread? Fear? Something menacing and negative? Are we reacting because we are superstitious? WHen I was on Knocknarea, 33 years ago, I removed 7 small stones which I carried around with me and back to America. I cannot think of them without shame at defacing a monument, but worse, feeling cursed by Queen Maeve. Is the psychology of superstition keeping us from relating to these sites as we (humans) were meant to? Certainly the ancients were not interested in summoning dark power.

[Nigel]

Irish Stones, I can tell that, like me, you have Irish blood. Am I right?
How can I tell? Because you are able to put up a case which is wrong and ill-founded(to me!) and yet defend it somehow with irresistable and elegant truths. Never argue with the Irish. That way lies madness....
I really can't see how I will ever be able to link my own understanding of kinetic energy or  Jung or Relativity or quantum physics with the "something else" of Chinese thought. Nor do I think I can make such a "leap of imagination" (if that's what it takes).What you're asking of me is similar to what a priest might ask of me: "to believe in God you must first accept Him and have Faith". I'd like to, Father, and I've tried, but I can't. So I guess I'll have to burn.....
But then you say:
"The labels vary, but the acknowledgement of some unseen level of existence has been consistant throughout most history. Only in Western Civilization has there been such effort to deny anything other than empirical "reality".
How unfair of you! Because I know it to be the truth, and I feel guilty that I'm so small minded and contributing to what might turn out to be the biggest flaw in the history of Western thought.

I can't argue with you any more, so I'm off to start a new thread. You're welcome to join me there (who knows, we might be allies there!)
I think you ought to hang about here for a while, though, until Galician wakes up and finds what you said about him. He's not going to be a happy surgeon!

[galician]

Well, I’ve been away for a while, and looks like there was a lot of activity here!
For any reason, Nigel expects me to come back in anger, because of something that IrishStones wrote, isn’t it?
But I’m in great disadvantage. English is not my native language (I suppose that you all realized it), and reading long texts, specially “literary-style” texts, is quite difficult to me. Those long replies from IrishStones needed to be printed and read with my dictionary by my side to be understood… And perhaps, they were not fully understood.
By the way, Nigel, how do you know that I have a beard that could be tweaked? Perhaps, you’re a clairvoyant?  
Then, I don’t know how, topic drifted to “kinetic energy”. I think I understand Nigel when he says that “kinetic energy” is a part of  that “weird feeling”. I’ve never been at Stonehenge, but perhaps I would think, under one of those massive lintel stones: “Wow, if this stone falls, it would make a lot of havoc…”. And I’d also think about the great amount of work needed to put it in place, when the most complex tool invented by the man was the lever. Perhaps I’d also feel that who built it has a purpose in mind, whatever it may be. Nobody would move those giant stones just for fun. Is that what you tried to say, Nigel?
But then, later in the thread, it changes again to quantum physics. And then, I got puzzled… How we came to quantum physics, from megaliths?
Perhaps I’m a bit outdated, when talking about physics… The last book I read about it was “The emperor’s new mind”, by Roger Penrose, so perhaps there’s something newer. The last time I knew about it, there were only four known natural forces: gravitation, electromagnetism, “strong nuclear interaction” and “weak nuclear interaction” (not sure about the last two names, I read the book in Spanish and I’m translating it “word for word”). They were trying to find a theory to join them all.
Perhaps I’m wrong, but I understood that you claim “quantum physics” or “kinetic energy” as the same as those ancient Chinese energies, isn’t it? As Physics evolved, newer theories complemented (not replaced!) older theories. So, for common purposes, the physics we studied in school, and “kinetic energy” among them, are useful. When somebody realized that particles at high speed (VERY high speed, near light speed) didn’t behave as predicted by the “common physics”, Relativistic Mechanics came to fill the need. And when both of them failed to explain some nuclear particles interactions, Quantum Physics were developed. Well, I’m not trying to be pedantic, just setting up some concepts. If I’m wrong at any point, please tell me.
As far as I know, quantum physics are only useful in particle-level environments. For our “level”, old formulas work OK, and trying to correct them to include the Relativistic and Quantum variations would be an unnecessary effort. What I’m trying to say is that all those “new scientific discoveries”, all those new forces and particles, quarks and so on, are far away from our “real” world. To detect them they needed bigger and more sophisticated particle accelerators. And perhaps, only perhaps, as the size and power of their accelerators increase, they will discover more and more exotic particles.
But I can’t see the relation between “mystic energies” and quantum theory, just because of what I said. It’s supposed that “mystic energies” have great effect in our common lives (they’re important enough to build a cult around), and quantum theory has very little. And “kinetic energy”, in this context, is only the revenge of gravitation against somebody who went against it by putting a rock in a high place.
Anyway, I can’t see how some roughly cut massive stones put in a particular place would have a controllable quantum effect… And answering your question, I can not believe that ancient priests knew about quantum theories, sorry… I can’t imagine them as “quarks-worshippers”.
Please, don’t tell me that ancient Greeks (Democritus?) knew about atoms. I know. But that was only a philosophical assumption: there must be a limit for how times we can divide some matter. And that elemental and unbreakable particle was called “atom”. Please, remember that they thought that this “atom” will retain the same properties as the whole original matter, and we know that it is false. And we also know that the “atom” is not so unbreakable.
I’m also interested in what you mean by “ancients summoning dark powers” (in your post from August 03). What’s a “dark power”? Even accepting that your “easy-to-use quantum energy” is real, it would be neither good nor evil. Energy is just energy. It has no personality, and definitely, no own will. Atomic energy can bring us light and heath, or bring the Hell on Earth like Hiroshima. We, who use that energy, are the good, or the evil. If you give personality and will to your “energies”, then they are entities…
I’m not going to leave the thread as Nigel did, but I agree that this discussion looks sterile, although very funny. The problem is that we don’t start from the same premises.
I’ll also post some comments on Nigel’s new thread. I only took a quick look on it, but I’m almost sure that Nigel and me will no be allies on that thread…
By the way, can somebody tell me why should I be angry?