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[Anew]

At and around 3:33 in BBC video #4, (linked from the first post of the Altai thread), ascending, 'flying', deer motifs appear carved/pecked into an outcrop . Below is a copy ––

 flyingdeeronoutcrop.png   284.39K   3 downloads

This type of design turns up often upon a class of carved standing stones, (largely in Mongolia), called Deer Stones ; and i think there is a good chance the stones are linked to the same (Pazyryk) culture which buried the woman, (Princess, priestess, storyteller, shaman, ?), the Altai thread focuses on . These deer bear some resemblance, (in my mind), to the Pictish Beast –– with their graceful lines and often elongated faces . One explanation for them is that they would carry the soul of the deceased to the above-realm with them . The stones also carry other symbols which are worth consideration, including bordered stacked chevrons, 'belts' of chained lozenges, and disks of varying interpretations .

Here are links to photos from the website flickr :

This photo, this one and this one, (including the same stone), show deer, (both ascending and descending), together with a humanoid figure having a small, thin body and a very large, featureless round head ; (it is standing, and its posture is relaxed) . One interpretation of this is that it may be a soul, (of a deceased person who perhaps commutes between the world and the afterlife with the climbing and diving deer) . Another interpretation may be that this is a toadstool diety, (such as i see or imagine in the image attached to post #5 of the Altai thread) . If so, the cap is now seen face-on, (rather than side-on as before) . The arms could also be the toadstool's skirt, (visible in these one, two photos) ; and the slightly separated legs could be an anthropomorphism . I note here having read (more than once) that deer/reindeer would eat the Amanita muscaria and leap 'ecstatically', something i hope is true . It is mentioned in a story linked from this post on the Psychedelic Mushrooms thread by Steve Sometimes .

This, this, this and this photo show the same stone . The deer are ascending and above the level of a disk, (next to which is a bow and an embellished, bordered band of triangles, with accessories) . This photo, (which includes the stone), offers explanatory notes . (Bands of triangles in another setting) .

This, this and this photo all show the same stone, with a circle at the top, and rising deer having elongated (almost hummingbird-like) faces . Please note how rudimentary their legs are –– another similarity with the Pictish Beast .

This photo, and this one introduce a sloping dotted line below the circle, (at top) . The sloping of the band might represent a particular limb of a mountain, (over which the sun could rise) ; but its dotted nature suggests a permeable barrier of some sort . Also noteworthy is that there's a gap in the band, below the circle . Dimly visible at the stone's middle is a bordered band of chained diamonds –– possibly (though distantly in both time and space) comparable to this photo . Dimly visible above the belt-of-diamonds is a brace of bordered stacked chevrons, pointing up .

A nice one . They really look more like fantastic beasts than deer here .

This stone also has bordered stacked chevrons, (again pointing up), this time above a belt of triangles . The repetition of the chevrons might be considered as expressing similar beliefs to those which drove the building of Silbury Hill, (layer after layer after layer) . Whether these were related is lost to time .

This stone, (one, two, three, four, five), six is deservedly one of the more photographed . It has a (female?) human/deity face at the top and wears two circles as hoop earrings . It also has a belt of bordered chained diamonds . The 'deer' both ascend and descend .
  
A nice one .

In the stone in the foreground of this photo, the deer dive almost straight down –– possibly complicating the ascent-to-heaven-with-a-soul interpretation .

This stone appears to show horses, (not flying), together with a filled and an outlined circle ; (the sun and moon?) , (good toadstool/bad toadstool?), (nice soul/naughty soul?) .

Two outlined circles on one stone, (left), might be easier to interpret as souls or toadstools than as two suns .

Here, again, outlined circles which appear to have stalk-like bodies beneath them .

Pretty local birds with long noses . Might these have gone into of the beastie being called a deer ?

So far from Aberdeen… Ta-daaah .

Here's something . Balanced and centered above a gap in a (slightly) sloping band of dots are three outlined circles, one large and two small . Perhaps these represent one mature and two budding fly agaric ; perhaps a group of souls, (parent and children?) ; perhaps celestial objects, if the two small are the sun and moon, might the large be the Earth ? Don't know .

A solid line beneath a circle . Perhaps a gap was implied by the natural break of the rock beneath the circle .

Someone's happy .

A level, solid (and possibly unbroken) line beneath a circle .

Stone row . Could this be related to the dotted lines below some of the circles on these stones ? Could it be related to the stone rows of the British Isles ?

Here's something (i think is worth paying attention to) . A toadstool-spirit, soul or sun-figure rises through a sloping dotted line . The circle-head of the figure has short rays all around it . Another small circle is nearby . The rays might imply the sun, but the smaller circle nearby is not near proportionally correct to be the moon ; and the body of the figure seems too slender to be a fitting sun-god . As a shining soul or an anthropomorphic magic toadstool spirit it would make more sense (to me) .

On this stone, a dotted line separates an outlined circle, (above), from a filled circle, (below) . A brace of stacked chevrons also appears, along with a block & triangle symbol i haven't seen before . Interestingly, the deer seem not to have antlers, but very birdlike beaks .

This three sided impression has two circles at its top, on opposite sides, and is awash with deer-beasts ; (all rising) . And this three sided impression has a belt of triangles and stacked chevrons that curve, like a cornucopia or an esoteric marine fossil .

[kevin.b]

Anew,
Quite wonderfull.
I reckon You must have been shaman in a past life.
Thank You.
Kevin

[Anew]

Kevin, you're going to spoil me . You're welcome, thank you also . I am truly honored if that is so .





The local birds above are Demoiselle Cranes, and are held in high esteem for their beauty and trans-Himalayan migration . In this close-up, please note the white plumage behind the head . Lines which may represent that plumage are a recurring element on the deer stones . This photo shows A migrating flock of what i believe are these cranes . If they are, and were deeply involved in the local beliefs, this formation might explain the braces of chevrons on many of these stones –– as a symbol believed to be representative of / symbiotic with the great flocks . However, i note also that the chevrons are shallower than the V-formation in the photo .





There is (yet) another element which i believe was part of the beastie of their stones . The Hucho taimen, a large relative of the salmon which frequents rivers thereabout . Here are one, two photos . Such would explain the dorsal-fin-like hump on the beastie's back, and the fish-like suppleness with which its body is often rendered . . . Thus –– like the griffin is a combination of the lion and eagle ; and the shoulder-tattoo of the Pazyryk storyteller/shaman(?) is a combination of the deer, horse and wild goat –– i believe that the 'deer' of the Deer Stones to be another combination of three : a magical mystical mythical beast having the head and head-trailing plumage of a demoiselle crane ; the antlers and haunches, (legs, when rendered), of a deer ; and the long, supple body and dorsal fin of a taimen ... Beautiful . "They don't make 'em like that anymore" . Please note also that the antlers of the beastie are not so much deer-like as flowing-water-like –– the preferred habitat of the taimen ; and that not every carving will have all these elements fully developed, leaving room to wonder if the animal shifted shape, (like a god having several forms), or if the form evolved ; or both .





More photos of the stones :

This one has a brace of chevrons at the bottom . The stone on the ground nearby may be an example of an unfinished man-stone –– a much different style found in the same landscape . At the top of the deer stone is a dotted line with a circle above a slight gap . I think that i see a toadstool-stalk/soul body below the circle, extending through the gap .

This one reminds me of Diego's photo of Lanvénael . I find myself wondering if other stones had beasts of varying descriptions drawn/painted on them back in the day .

Fine stones with all the elements . Once again, i think i see a very slender stalk-body below the large circle on the one in the background .

Beasties along the edge of a fallen stone .





Pursuing the dotted line to another venue, (as mentioned in post#5 of the Altai thread), there is a long PDF file on a 17 year research dig in Yorkshire . One of the things they found was that rows of pits had been dug, often with nothing much to explain them ; (there are maps on pages 103, 123, 157, 161 and 170) . In the map on page 157, against a row running northwest, and north of a gap in a row, is a ring ditch remaining from a barrow in which there was a cremation ; (pp. 216 bottom - 217) . I consider there may be a commonality between the Deer Stone symbolism-subset of the dotted line with the gap, above which is a circle with (often) a wraith-like stalk-like figure rising through the line ; and the presence of this barrow above a gap in the row of pits . Part of the puzzle is that nothing more substantial than a flint microlith and a piece of fired clay were found in the nearby pits . It may be possible that these held something temporal/soft which does not now survive, (hasn't been detected) . But i think it is also possible that the pits weren't meant to hold something, so much as to be something .

[Anew]

Anew, on 13 July 2011 - 13:09, said:

On this stone, a dotted line separates an outlined circle, (above), from a filled circle, (below) . A brace of stacked chevrons also appears, along with a block & triangle symbol i haven't seen before . Interestingly, the deer seem not to have antlers, but very birdlike beaks .

…

And this three sided impression has a belt of triangles and stacked chevrons that curve, like a cornucopia or an esoteric marine fossil .

Further regarding the first of these, the dotted line between the outlined circle (above), and the filled circle (below) has no wide gap . This is not unique, but is somewhat unusual . I think that the filled and empty circles are together a statement of inversion –– and that one side of the dotted line was representative of the realm of the living, the other of that of the dead, with the circles changing their character accordingly . I think that the dots, (like the pits in the Yorkshire landscape mentioned at the bottom of the previous post), may have been representative of absence –– of the void –– a spiritual manifestation which i have myself encountered and found (suitably) terrifying . If so, their representation of it as a (for the most part) dotted line may imply that they felt this boundary could be crossed in either direction . And their carving circles here, (of opposite nature), on both sides may imply that they felt that death was a boundary, rather than an ending . I like the thought of these people, (or of any people), believing that they/we live in worlds traveled by both the living and the interested dead .

Turning to the brace of chevrons, there appear to be nine of them, thrice three, which may have been considered an auspicious number . To the question of whether they could be representative of / linked to the Demoiselle Crane (migrating in formation), one might add that of whether this was intended to be many flocks along a migratory path, or one flock at successive points in time . I lean toward the former . This stone, (previously cited), has a brace of twelve chevrons, four times three, and this stone, (previously cited), appears to have a brace of nine again . That brings to mind two stones, (magnification), which appear to have three parallel lines carved into them .

As noted before, the beast on this stone has no antlers . Though it could be a doe, it may also indicate that the deer aspect of the beast was not an indispensable part of its representation .





Further regarding the second of these, the "cornucopia" figures climbing the right side of the stone are nothing of the sort . I believe they are representative of this character, who has quite a reputation with the locals .

Worthy of note : one of the beasties on the front of the stone has both antlers and a camel-like double-hump . As a one-of, this might simply have reflected the humor of the artist ; or it might indicate a degree of flexibility with the form . The Bactrian camel is native to that area, and was likely important enough to some to include in the mythology/iconography . In those stretches the camel frequents, the fish might have seemed a logical swap-out .

The stone also has a fine belt of chained triangles across its bottom . It may be that two of the reasons that chained triangles were a common symbol of the time were that these combined beliefs about the divinity of the number three with beliefs about inversion into a symbol, "greater than the sum of its parts" . The triangles invert with every step, yet by filling the space completely imply a harmony exists in doing so . Perhaps by extension, that life and death were aspects of a balanced whole which could be seen from the (transcendental) outside .

[Anew]

Anew, on 13 July 2011 - 13:09, said:

This three sided impression has two circles at its top, on opposite sides, and is awash with deer-beasts ; (all rising) .

The two circles at the top of the stone seem to be of opposite nature : one (to the right) filled, the other outlined . They seem also to be part of a larger design, the details of which are unclear, but suggestive . There is a dotted line running beneath these, having no wide gap . The beasts are quite fine, including the deer's tail and antlers both deer-like and wave-like, along with the taimen's dorsal fin and the crane's head ; (as i interpret it) .




On this stone, which also show antlers both deer-like and wave-like, three parallel lines again appear, (something mentioned in the last post), this time at the bottom .

[kevin.b]

Anew,
    A few observations,
Deer antlers, are not realised IMHO.
By that I mean from a signal detection and transmitter ability.
It may pay to try and identify which deer are shown,
http://www.wildlifeo...swers_deer.html

Think of the curve of the tynes, and the possible amplitude of signals involved?

Then what does the number THREE 3  look like?
3,6,9.
I have said previously how I detect NINE parallel lines , in three groups of three/s, the gap between the groups is plus 50% of the gap between the lines grouped as three.

Then the angle of the deers againt horizontal, which can only be demonstrated on a stone or rock face.
Again I can locally detect this by detecting the same line at various elevations above surface, it's simple to do and mark against any wall.
Where the stone is will be a vortex PINCH point where the geometry creates opposing vortexs.
The flow on each line( they are more akin to sheets of invisable glass, I consider they are actually phase conjugate lasers)varies, especially in conjuction with the moon, but all other solar bodies affect this amplitude.
We have modern osiliscopes to plot the variable amplitude of signals, how would they have thought of this in past times?
Kevin