39 replies to this topic

[dyn coed]

i dont disagree with any of your methods, sure you've actually proved how "easy" it can be done. but my question was fregarding the use of animals. they could have been used to transport, and they might have been used to place the stones in position.
none of you are ready to open up your minds to the fact. it dissapoints me that this is poopoo'd without genuine discussion, and disregarded so easily.

your experiments use methods that have been in common use in one way or another to move heavy objects before machines came and gave us an easier life. nothing i've seen from your experiments is "new", very often i've used such methods myself to move large un-uniform masses of rock or wood from a few inches to a few yards. when you have to, you can move the unmovable.

[Nigel]

Dyn,

I don't think either Gordon or Wally would say they've proved they have the method, but they've developed - and more importantly demonstrated -  possible methods, not just theorised about them, so good for them.

As a member of Gordon's team I can assure you we've done a lot of thinking about alternatives, including oxen. No way do we have closed minds - in fact another team member, prompted by your postings, has opened a discussion on the subject elsewhere.

Maybe Wally's and Gordon's methods AND oxen were used, at different stages, who knows? There are parts of the journey that couldn't have been down to oxen alone, IMO - e.g. at the source of the stones. You'd need some very high IQ oxen there.

I'd be interested if you could expand on your ideas about oxen. E.g. we've researched neolithic rope strength. How big do you think the teams were?

[Jimit]

For those not familiar with the size of the stones we are dealing with, may I suggest a visit to  this lovely site..  http://www.avebury-w...ance_stone.html  and in particular, notice the massive nature of the "Devil's Chair".

[galician]

Well, I think our ancestors might be primitive, but that doesn't mean "stupid".
Some of the ancient monuments, like pyramids, Inca fortresses and of course, megaliths, are a puzzle for modern people. For example, a friend of mine who is an architect had to admit one day that he wouldn't be able to build a Gothic cathedral using medieval tools and machines. Of course, if you give him a number of cranes, trucks, bulldozers and all that stuff, he would! What's lost is the master stonemason secret,  for example how to raise big stone blocks to a vault using only "medival machines" and human/animal power.
I think that megaliths were built by our ancestors, using the available means in ways we can't guess because we simply don't need them as a basic survival ability.
Well, otherwise, we can join people like Von Däniken and claim that megaliths were built by little green men flying big shiny UFOs. But if that's true, they could have built something more... huh... technologic?

[Jimit]

An archive story.....
Here in Winchester, Hampshire in 1901, to commemorate the 1000th aniversary of the death of Alfred the Great, King of Wessex (871-99 The Victorians got the date wrong!) a great statue was erected, standing on two massive granite blocks. The lower of 48 and the upper of 54 tons. A picture taken at the time shows the upper block being transported from the railway station. What is amazing is the number of horses it needed to move it. It is a couple of years since I have seen the photo but there were at least 20 and this was on well made roads using "modern" methods.

I'm not suggesting that Meso/Neolithic people did not use draught animals but my own personal opinion is that a large team of oxen would be very difficult to control over rugged ground where the stone might have to change direction every few yards to avoid an obstruction and where the team it self could not pull in a straight line for the same reason.

This site.. http://www.themodern...n.com/site/3980  shows the sort of terrain the stones would have had to traverse and don't forget that it looks like this even now after 4,000 years of quarrying!

[dyn coed]

hi jimmit,

guess the question you posted on head heritage gave you enough answers that may show that animals could have been used after all, and i'm glad i'm not the only one who thinks that way.

[Nigel]

For anyone in the area, the Stonehengineers will be attempting a large-scale experiment this weekend 14/15 May at the National Tramway Museum, Crich, Derbyshire. It will be filmed by a TV production company and all are welcome.

Saturday will be devoted to “stonerowing” a ten ton block several hundred yards up a gradient similar to those between the Marlborough Downs and Stonehenge using a team of ten or twelve people. Time allowing, Sunday will be devoted to constructing a wooden tower, rowing the block onto it and perhaps dropping it vertically to confirm calculations in preparation for future experiments.

http://www.stonehengineers.co.uk

[Jimit]

The experiment was a success! For a bunch of un-coordinated amateurs to achieve what we did deserves a pat on the back  

For more details and pictures...... http://www.heritagea...heritagejournal  

Jim.

[Orlando]

Hi, everyone.
The topic of using animals in prehistory seems logic to me, if these where already domesticated. I am not an expert in this matter. However, reading the threads, it triggered a memory about the Easter Island excavations by Thor Heyerdahl, which were published in his book AKU-AKU - The Mystery of Easter Island, of which I have a dutch translation.
He managed to convince the chief of one of the local tribes to show how his ancestors erected the huge megalith effigies crowned by a red 'hair' topping block. He knew the whole technique as transmitted through 11 generations of oral tradition.  They used long wooden levers, shoving smaller stones under the statue laying on its "belly". So the monolith gradually went upright under the growing layer of smaller stones, until it was set back upright on the wall where it originally stood.
TWELVE MEN

[Orlando]

Sorry, something happened whilst typing...
Easter Island Monoliths : TWELVE MEN with wooden poles and stones achieved this in EIGHTEEN DAYS.
So, if time is not an issue, as it was in the old days, and intelligence even in those days was certainly not lacking, the erection of monoliths certainly was feasible.