37 replies to this topic

[Tom]

What is the reason to build the megalitic exactly on that place where we found it now? I think that is not random. there must be a deeper reason. we know that the most of the megalithic are used for burial or astronomical application - but was this the original reason? most of the megalithic are much older then the druids/keltic that usage we try to reconstruct. but we know nothing about the founder. itssss hard to believe, that a 60 tons dolmen should be build only for a burial on a place far away from any civilisation and the (ancient) public life?

[Arran and Emma]

I'm not sure that these sites were far away from civilizations, many settlements have been found close by most of the sites we've been to. Indeed, they could have easily been meeting points for various tribes and therefore very public places. There was certainly a lot of movement amongst the ancients, moving as food, land and hostility dictated. These sites would surely have been thousands of years old when the Celtics came to our shores, and subsiquent invaiders/inhabitants have had their own set of rules to decide where they should live. The importance of high, desolate hills must have become less as trade became more important.

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[IrishStones]

I'm theorizing that the same motives and methods used by other ancient cultures, and seemingly universal in the ancient world, are at work with Stones. The well-documetned history and philosophy of Geomancy in China may hold some interesting thoughts for speculation. Geomancy masters would site the burial sites through study of the elements of landscape. Certain features, in relationship to other features were considered important before choosing a site.  At some point in history dowsing was employed. The ancients believed in earth energies which could be tapped for good. Dragon veins running thorugh the earth, which could be cut into, were treated with huge respect and reverance. Stones may have been used to "contain" these energies.

[galician]

I've already posted my own opinion in other threads. It's difficult to guess why were those places important in the lives of our ancestors, and it's also difficult to guess how their rites would look like. That's why I always smile when I watch in the TV those "modern druids" celebrating solstice rites in Stonehenge. Perhaps a real druid would also smile, if he could see them, or perhaps he would be very angry, like a Christian priest looking at some pagans making a parody of a Mass in a Cathedral... Well, coming back on the subject, this is what I think:
1. They are, definitely, tombs. Perhaps not really tombs as we undestand the term, one tomb for each corpse, but complete graveyards. Some writers point that they were used as burial places not only for a man, but for the whole community. From this point of view, the great effort needed to build them would be understood.
2. Sacred places. This purpose is closely related to the previous one, as burial grounds are also ceremonial places for many cultures all over the world. Of course, we can not describe the rites that they celebrated there. We can't even describe the rites that the Celts (or other tribes who "found" the megaliths when they came to these lands) celebrated there! Of course, if we accept that they were burial grounds, it's easy to suggest that some rites related to Death were carried near these megaliths but... who knows?
3. Landmarks. At least in my land, Galicia, some investigators suggest that megaliths were built near the tribal land's borders. Perhaps a supernatural wall against invaders. Anyway, our megaliths are usually placed in high terrain, and can be easily seen from the surrounding lands.
4. Astronomical observatories? I don't think our dolmens were built with this purpose, although I can't refuse it for standing stones sites like Stonehenge or Carnac. Simply, I've never been at one of these sites, and, except for Stonehenge, I have not read enough about them to make my own opinion.
5. Trading points? Perhaps, a "sacred ground" to make treaties or trade in peace, where any violence was forbidden. That was an interesting suggestion, Arran and Emma. I never thought about it before.
Well, those are the main purposes I can think for megaliths. If you have any other idea, please post it and we'll discuss it.
But what I strongly disagree is that they were built away from inhabited places. First, those Neolithic and Bronze Age people, in many cases, were semi-nomadic. They had their own territory, of course, we hardly can imagine a nomadic people spending so much time and effort in building a dolmen or a cromlech, only to leave it behind the next season. But perhaps they moved from a part of they land to another depending on the season, searching for fresh pasture for their herds, or cultivating the land in a rotary system (perhaps, burning it first, as it's still done nowadays in some places of Africa). Anyway, the fact that we have't found a neolithic village near a megalith does not mean that there was no inhabited place near it. Only that they left no traces.
Any other opinion would be very interesting, please, post it!

[bobtheham]

I believe that most of the dolmen structures we find now were originally built as quasi-temples and/or as astronomical observatories. While studies of the orientation of the British dolmens may not have been done, my study of the Portuguese dolmens reveals a very consistent alignment to particular directions. What has not been adequately investigated is the age of the structures versus the age of any burials that they may have contained, or age consistent with the possible stellar alignments. I think they were built to align with the rising of a star group, so that the builders could calibrate their calendars and celebrate their important festivals at the correct time.

[Nigel]

Why were megaliths built where they were, and what were they for?
That's a mighty big question. Here's my contribution, based on the ones I know in Britain.

First, location: there's an important distinction to be made - I assume we're talking of true megalithic monuments (i.e. important GROUPS of standing stones) rather than "other monuments".
The latter tend to be on hilltops or ridges (defensive camps, high visibility high status tombs) or on prominent points CLOSE TO ANCIENT TRACKWAYS, which, for safety, tended to be on ridges (eg single standing stones, perhaps acting as boundary markers and/or grave markers?)and Cup & Ring Art on prominent outcrops. To my mind, the camps and graves would be likely to be associated with settled communities nearby, whereas the Rock Art would be more likely be a product of earlier nomadic times (to be visited only occasionally). The single standing stones could be attributable to either lifestyle.
Of the true megalithic monuments I've seen, most would seem to have a settled community very close by. Also, the ones with the largest stones aren't to be found on top of hills (unsurprising, in view of their size).

Secondly,the purpose that true megalithic monuments fulfilled. I'm sure eveyone is right, in a way, because the purposes probably varied in different communities, except that:
I'm unconvinced about geomancy etc since there's no evidence for any cultural link with China, and I agree that the Druids are irrelevant (how many forests have been destroyed explaining the Druids post-dated the megaliths!)
Some common (or frequent) factors can be noted, however: proximity of water, and astronomical alignment. Both, to me, suggest religion.
Burials (and sacrifices) are often found, but considering the importance of the monuments to the communities they served I would suggest that these are far too few to indicate that the monuments had a primary purpose connected with burial.
I also think that the astronomical alignments are overplayed. Most such monuments DO have a lunar or solar alignment, but there is no precision (other than that which is suggested gy people with sensational books to sell!) If you worship the sun, and you want a good harvest, then maybe you will align your temple just right. But that's quite different from claiming that there's a much deeper, scientific alignment. After all, if the ancient priests were into that they could make a "solar observatory" of immense accuracy by scratching a sundial on a flat rock.

So that's my bet. Religion. Worship of sun, moon, earth. A bit of sacrifice. All to ensure a good harvest.  

[fireflite]

At dawn on the winter solstice, every year for the past 5000 (?) years, the sun enters the roof box above the entrance at Newgrange. A square beam of light travels down the passage and lights up a carving of the Sun on the back wall of the end chamber. Only on this day does this happen. There is a stone "bowl" in the North chamber. This bowl is said to have been used for cremations. 1st question: If they performed cremations, why would there be any burials? There is evidence that the "bowl" was originally in the center of the main chamber standing on its side. A stone "mask" with to swirls for "eyes" and a hole for a "mouth" was also found in the excavations. There is evidence that suggests that this was standing on a wooden pole directly in front of the bowl. 2nd question: Satellite dish anyone??

There are 400+ known Passage Mounds in Ireland and many have exact astronomical alignments to different events. For example Knowth is aligned to the spring/fall equinox sunrise. I have witnessed several of these firsthand and it's truly amazing. There may be religious significance to all this, but how do we know if whoever built these was religious at all.

[Nigel]

I agree that Newgrange type alignments are spectacular, but my point was that they aren't evidence of expert astronomical knowledge (or ET involvement!) as some people are keen to suggest.
To know the position of the midwinter sun, or the solstices etc is a matter for simple observation one year, and incorporating into a building plan the next.

As to "how do we know whether the alignments were of religious significance" then of course I have to agree, we don't. But it seems to me it was pretty likely, given that these people were probably one bad harvest away from mass starvation, so the turning of the year would be a crucial concern in their lives. If you've got hundreds of monuments with different solar/lunar alignments, and most of them having some evidence of a connection with death (eg all the cursuses) then it's hard to think of an explanation other than a religious one.

[galician]

Yes, I agree with Nigel. Solstice alignements only mean that our ancestors had eyes in their heads...
There are two "ways" of approaching our Prehistory. Some people think that our ancestors were stupid. They could not do almost anything for themselves, so if their temples have giant stones from a quarry several miles away, Neolithic men obviously could not have done that: little green men in flying saucers with powerful energy beams did. That's the approach of people like Daniken and so on, and this theories were "popular" some decades ago. The other approach is to presume that they had unsuspected knowledge of the Universe, "Earth energies", "magic", and so on; knowledge that was, sadly, lost (of course!), so according to this theory WE are the stupids, that can not understand the overwhelming intelligence of our ancestors' monuments. Perhaps they are highly sophisticated devices, but we simply can not find the "start" button. Some people thinks this way: Mohenjo Daro destroyed by nuclear weapons launched by flying "vimanas", the lost continent of Atlantis...
I don't agree any of them. I don't think that our ancestors were stupid, and I don't think that we are stupid (although sometimes I'm very doubtful about this point). Just, we don't have the same needs that our ancestors. We have our own methods to count the time, and nowadays, nobody minds the Summer Solstice, but everybody thinks about the date when summer holiday stars... And religion is losing its place of privilege in our lives. As Nigel said, when survival depends on if you plant your seeds in the exact moment, or if you know when migratory deers or buffalos come to the valley, you will be very very aware of time. And calculating the solstice alignment is as easy as Nigel described. If you're going to use aligned standing stones, first you will use some stakes, and then, when you're sure about when solstice is, you put a stone in the same place. That's all.
By the way, cremation rituals and burial places  are usually found together. That's why I said before that perhaps they are not "tombs", but a comunal tomb, a "graveyad" itself, and by the way, perhaps a temple related with death.
When Nigel mentioned the megaliths placed near ancient trackways, I remembered an ancient trackway that goes on the heights of a hill range in Northern Galicia, in "Serra Faladoira". There's a lot of megaliths near it. The track ends near the Cape of Estaca de Bares, where there's an ancient port, supposed to be Phoenician. So this track might be a main comercial route for the local tribes, the entrance for exotic trade goods. This supports Nigel's suggestion.

[IrishStones]

it is so true, that we, in our modern western culture cannot perceive the spirituality and the need that inspired the standing stones and other megalithic prehistoric sites. What we do know, fom the only culture (China) which has a written history that is traceable to 1200 BCE based on a tradition that is at least 1400 years earlier than that, is that there was enormous awareness of the natural world. As you all have said, every phenomenon was of an importance far more intense than we have need to feel now. It was a matter of survival.

In the 3200 year-old Chinese texts, to which I refer, there is a powerful awareness of these "earth energies" that you may call magic, if you will, but which the culture has respected for almost five centuries. This knowledge base DID travel throughout the mid-east, into Western Europe, and came across with the Native American culture as well. It is a "religion"" of nature, which included the potential timeliness of  heavenly changes, not in the sense of western astrology, but in a real  astronomical natural science. All I'm saying is that PERHAPS there may have been a use both ritualistic and practical for these stones, and that their placement was determined in natural scientific methods such as geomancy to "harness" or "tap" into what they perceived to be energy fields. Much in the same way Buddhist monks site their monasteries or Feng Shui Masters site their tombs in today's world. Have any studies been done on the magnetic north alignments of these sites? Are there any statistics available on individual site in this regard?

[Nigel]

Well, let's agree to this:
I'll accept your "PERHAPS" about geomancy and feng shui if you will back up your "DID" with regard to the transmission of Chinese influence to Neolithic Europe.
As I understand it, the thinking now is that there is overwhelming evidence that the major achievements of early civilization, such as the development of farming and writing developed independently in several areas of the world....China, Egypt, the Americas.... in other words, there was no "first" civilization from which the others learned, and any similarities between them can't be taken as evidence of a cultural connection.
Regarding your question about magnetic alignment to the North is concerned, I don't really understand what you mean. Are there cases of anomolous magnetic readings around megaliths?

[fireflite]

David Brennan's book "The Stars and The Stones" has some data of magnetic alignments of the mounds in Ireland. I am personally a very religious person, but I haven't seen any evidence that points to any religious significance in the structures or artifacts associated.

[Nigel]

Do you recall if he explained what "magnetic alignments" are? I've not heard of them and I don't understand how such a thing could exist.... unless he meant there was magnetic rock present.

[galician]

Yes, it's easy to talk about strange energies that science can not measure. I'd like to see some scientific evidence about those "Earth energies" and so on. While they are not measured in scientific experiments, I'll not believe in them.
And about alignments, of course, I "believe" in them, but I'm sure that our ancestors were intelligent and had plenty of time to observe their environment, the sky, the movement of the Moon, the Sun and the Stars, so they could extract their own theories about seasons, and build their tombs/temples according to them. Other motivations for megaliths, like Feng Shui theories, need to be supported by strong evidences before being credited. And there's no evidence, yet.
I'm not "closing the door" to new "knowledge", but I will not rush to believe in any theory that science can not support.

[Arran and Emma]

I'm not sure science is the right discipline to understand what may be meant by earth-lines. What would we gain by getting science to explore the possibilities of them? That will give us results that have no meaning in the context of why these monuments were built.

I hate to use this as an example for many reasons, but lets suppose that in years to come, someone, somehow finds an abandon church with some wine and bread inside. Knowing something about the religion, they announce that it was believed that these were the blood and body of their saviour. Alls fine, and indeed accurate, until science runs some tests on them and declares that these are no bodily substances, just wafer bread and some fermented grapes. How could they have thought that they meant anything else?

It’s not a great example, but I hope it tries to show that that whether the lines actually do or don’t exist is not where the argument should start for now. What we need to know is whether our ancestors believed in them and built these monuments because of them.

Then perhaps we can move the scientists in...

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