47 replies to this topic

[123hopp]

Yes, Kevin; it`s quite possible. The Cross is a very old symbol. And here: www.slagruta.org/IMG/nr24.pdf , you can see a diagram for 8 -paths crossing at the top of the "Inglinge hög" tumulus. And on the cover of this dowsing bulletin, there`s this Stone Globe for Stonecarver to see.
So; my mania of looking for a centre on consequtive levels of human life has lead us to this point. Center of Värend - one of three small landscapes making up Småland in Sweden.
In the meantime I took a look at those stone balls of Scotland and those "stenklot" are found here, too and classified as medieval artillery projectiles.

[stonecarver]

Hi 123Hopp,

are you explaining that carved stone balls similar to those found in Scotland exist in Sweden - in exactly the same format? By this i mean, the same size/weight and with the same decorations? If they do - how have they been dated, and can you supply any photographs/link to articles, or ways we might read about them please...

Medieval artillery shot Can sometimes be a similar size and weight as the Neolithic carved stone balls - but they are not found in a prehistoric context, and not a single one of them here has been decorated like the Neolithic carved stone balls. There are tests which can be made on stone artefacts to determine their age (approximately, at least, sufficient for us to be able to determine the difference between an object 4500 years old and one 500 years old). Also, the Scottish carved stone balls have certain features which are unique. Any other object that is similar in size, weight... does not constitute a Neolithic specimen if it does not have those features...

Let me see, please...  

[123hopp]

Ha, Stonecarver. I`ve seen those carvings on your Scottish stone balls and I can assure you that here in Sweden we`ve got nothing of the kind!! I`ve met some notes about those artillery projectiles scanning Swedish net under "stenklot" and that`s it. Alas; nothing unusual.
But as for your Scottish  carved stone balls; some of them remind me of the many-breasted (!?) Artemis of Ephesos. Is there any chance they`ve been used to enhance fertility!? I kind of remember a discussion some years ago about small figurines of those Willendorff-type Venuses found sometimes in the contexts of first neolithic field areas on the continent. Some of your balls look could be an abstract symbol of this lady`s qualities!?
Just probing...

[stonecarver]

I managed to find images of medieval Swedish siege engine stone shot.

They are Nothing to do with Neolithic carved stone balls from Scotland and the British Isles. Red herring.

Venus figurines are an Upper Palaeolithic phenomenon, in some areas marginally extending into more recent prehistory, whereas the prehistoric carved stone balls from SCOTLAND are much more recent... Neolithic, on the cusp of the Bronze Age. Again... (I know i have said this several times in this topic and others)...

Quoting myself: " Just because something LOOKS like something else, does not mean it has Any relevence to the topic in question". Especially the more remote the connection (geographically, chronologically, or culturally).

The Venus figurines of central Europe are Nothing to do with the Scottish carved stone balls. They might be stone. They Might have curved features. But.... they are absolutely in No way connected.   (Another red herring).

It's all very well speculating, but please... let that specualtion be carefully considered.

One of my research interests IS the parietal and mobiliary art of the Upper Palaeolithic (I have given a conference presentation on my work with Upper Palaeolithic mobiliary art), and stone objects are my special research area. Venus figurines are in no way connected with Scottish carved stone balls, and there is ample literature about the Venus figurines.

Can we maybe restrain ourselves in This topic and bring the debate back to the actual objects (Neolithic carved stone balls from Scotland) themselves. I can probably answer Any question anybody has about these enigmatic objects... maybe members could mail me and ask me... and post their thoughts after checking the available literature (which i have posted above, in an earlier post)...

But to reiterate and to highlight the relevant literature (which answers many of the questions arising in this debate, (and therefore it might be a good idea for interested parties to avail themselves of the Already Published Literature before posting suggestions here).

The relevant published material is :-

Dorothy Marshall 1977: "Carved Stone Balls" PSA(Scot)                       ((The Primary data source at present))

Evans 1872 (reprinted 1897): "The Ancient Stone Implements of Great Britain"

Mann 1914: "The Carved Stone Balls of Scotland: A New Theory as to Their Use" PSA(Scot)

Dorothy Marshall 1983: "Further Notes on Carved Stone Balls" PSA(Scot)

Childe, Cowie & Foxon 1985 "Symbols of Power at the Time of Stonehenge"             ((An AMAZING book))

Edmonds 1992: "Their Use is Wholly Unknown" in "Vessels for the Ancestors" (Sharples & Sheridan, Eds)

And lastly, feel free to mail me with questions if you are considering a post... open offer to all...  

Stonecarver

[123hopp]

I know; my approach based on "eternal ideas" is hard to bear. But just megalithic traditions illustrate that it`s a way of finding a meaning
and connection among different objects . On the other hand, similar objects could be used to convey different ideas in the course of history.
1. When I dived into Swedish collections, it came out that artillery projectiles of late Middle Ages were of the diameter between 3,7 and 9,3 cm!! ( Take the way "Axtorna 1565 - Historia - Artilleriet" on google.com)

2. In the Historical Museum, Stockholm, there are 3 or 4 types of stone balls - see   www.historiska.se/collections/mis/sok/resultat
They are undated (short."odat"); places where they were found and item Nos specified. Those with a cross on them are interesting to me. It seems that some of them belonged to some hand-mills!?

3. And now the biggest kind of stone balls. Take  www.sr.se/gotland/gotlandrunt/bara.stm
There are big stone balls found in the fields on the photo 11. Those people ask about information what`s this and what to do with them.

So; Stonecarver; another heap of stone balls without meaning!?
Good luck

[stonecarver]

The artillery pieces are interesting in themselves, and thanks for the links 123 !

3 or 4 stone artillery balls with diameters between 3.7 and 9.3 cm ? I had rather anticipated there might be rather more. At the National Museum of Scotland there are hundreds of Neolithic carved stone balls. Most are between 6.5 and 7.5cm in diameter. I would have thought rather more medieval artillery 'spheres' (shot) would have survived. I note that most of the Swedish medieval artillery stone objects (they're not all spheres eh) are much larger (as some were designed to be thrown from lareg siege engines, or from bombards and cannon.

I never said the Swedish balls don't have meaning. They are embedded with histories... of the masons who made them, the people who wanted them made, and the people who used them in conflict - rather an exciting life cycle for a simple object don't you think?

One of the Key issues relating to Scottish Neolithic carved stone balls is that they have no known antecedants, and are without parallel. That's one reason they are so intriguing.

I am biting at the bit to relate to you some of the research I have been doing, but I am bound by convention, not to publish that here until it is in the public domain as it is being officially published elsewhere.

I Can say however that the carved stone balls are rather more important (in some respects) than might be expected given their very limited distribution in space and time... but not perhaps in the way some people would wish.

[123hopp]

I`ve eliminated great caliber artillery used by any siege, as your Scottish balls were found in the fields. Therefore, only an exemplary field battle plus relevant sizes from the Historical Museum in Stockholm were quoted. Now, the sizes of balls from Gotland maybe exceed any artillery caliber!?

[Peregrine]

Hi Stonecarver,

I've been following your discussions on this topic for some time now and I find this subject to become more intriquing with every posting I read.  

As to return to the question about the original purpose or use of the Scottish stone balls, here's my personal view on them :

From personal (amateur/hobbyist) experience, I know how difficult it is to shape or work the surfaces of different materials. (wood, stone, metals, glass)
One has to respect and understand the properties and structure of each material in order to do so. ( to become one with the material, as it were).
It is extremely difficult to manufacture a perfect sphere by hand from any material.

Knowing this, I can really appreciate the enormous craftsmanship that must have been necessary to create the stone balls I saw on the Hunterian Museum site which Diego so kindly provided.
Again from experience, upon finishing any object, I can assure you that you have brought some part of yourself into this object, and the object has become a part of you.

Therefore, I find it hard to believe that these intricately carved objects would have been used as some sort of slingshot or even as game objects, because they easily would  become damaged.
One tends to protect the things one creates, especially when a lot of effort has been put into it.

With this in mind, I rather would lean towards the idea that these objects may have had something to do with personality, status or identity. (of a person, small group, household)

These are, of course, just my musings on the subject.  

All best,  Peregrine.

[stonecarver]

Hi Peregrine,

thanks for the post - all the points you make are valid, of course...

However... during the research for my dissertation, tests were made with carved stone balls... and they perform well as missile weapons. They can be thrown by hand, used as sling shot or bolas (and I have tried all three, with surprising results).

The carved stone balls were undamaged even after several hours of use and when thrown examples struck others which had already been thrown. Point of fact, approximately 30% of the originals exhibit damage possibly caused by impacts, and this is noted in a recent paper I have written (which is being presented at a conference later this year). They were also used for a throwing game called petanque... and used by both adults and children - with no damage caused by impact. Ergo, damage visible on the carved stone balls is likely to have been caused by high velocity impact only.

Furthermore, there are many examples of finely made missile weapons from prehistory... and decoration is no measure of an objects utility - some of the most finely decorated prehsitoric implements are indeed weapons (look at the Maesmore flint maces for example - see "Symbols of Power at the Time of Stonehenge" for examples... full details of that book in an earlier post, above).

I studied lithic technology for two years at university (with Dr Bruce Bradley and Dr Linda Hurcombe, both experts in stone tools and experimental archaeology), and was taught flint-knapping by Dr Bruce Bradley and John Lord, two of the world's most eminent flint knappers... see their sites :-

Dr Bruce Bradley, Director Experimental Archaeology University of Exeter

http://www.primtech.net/

John Lord, Britain's best flint knapper

http://www.flintknapping.co.uk/

I currently demonstrate the technology of ground stone tools. If anybody wants to come and see me making prehistoric implements (axes, adzes, battleaxes, axehammers, mauls, hammers, chisels, gouges and carved stone balls), just ask and I will tell you where and when.

During my MA in Experimental Archaeology I manufactured a wide range of replica stone tools, weapons and other stone objects (all from the British Isles). A decorated carved stone ball can be manufactured more rapidly than a developed battleaxe (same period and contemporary). The argument that carved stone balls must be high status and must take a long time to manufacture is questionable - I have demonstrated through my research that labour investment is a valid way of measuring manufacturing costs (and see euroREA 2004 for an excellent article from the Czech Republic on exactly this), and weapons are one of the very things that people traditionally decorate, sometimes very elaborately.

With regard to the decorations seen on carved stone balls, the patterns repeat so frequently, it is unlikely they were tokens to identify individuals. In fact, i can explain Exactly what the decorations represent, but I cannot state that here (Now) because it is the subject of a conference paper i have to present later this summer, and of several articles which are currently at press (ie I am waiting for them to be published).

The things you mention (and have worked out) are all mentioned in the extant literature, starting with Evans (19th century!), Marshall 1977, Edmonds 1993 and 1995, Ashmore, Ritchie and a number of other authors. Perhaps you might like to check out McGregor's article 1999 PSA(Scot) which adopts a more phenomenological approach (ie he goes beyond the post-modern western capitalist/formalist view... in simple terms, he argues against the cost of manufacture being a determinant for their function/role... and suggests ways carved stone balls might relate to society other than as high status objects as inferred by the illusion of high manufacture costs). In fact, he argues convincingly against an occularcentric perspective, and I subscribe to that view to an extent. My research indicates the decoration IS important however, but not in the way that people think... (but damn i can't at the moment say exactly why!). Argh!

[123hopp]

What decoration!? What I can see are grooves, needed for stabilizing of a string looped around a ball!!

[Peregrine]

Hi Stonecarver,

Thank you so much for the detailed information and excellent links and references you provided.
I truely admire your hands-on mentality regarding your research.

Your explanation regarding the possible use of the stone balls as weapons sounds very convincing now, especially because of your actual experimentations.

As for the value of decorated stone balls as weapons/missiles :

First of all I respect the fact that you cannot say anything for the moment.

I imagine though that, when the decorations/carvings on these balls would have any influence on the effectiveness or performance of the missile, this may have something to do with the force of impact.
I'm not sure about the exact dynamics here, but I think it is possible that the force of impact of each of the six elevated surfaces on the ball may be greater than the total force of impact of a smooth unworked ball.
The elevated surface would hit the target with the force of a hammer-blow, I think.
It would be like throwing or slinging a six-sided hammer.

Next to this, I think that a decorated ball would provide for a better grip of the hand.
But I also think that one must actually feel the weight and texture of such a ball to be able to confirm this.

If such an improved missile (instead of a piece of raw rock) would really work so much better, the effectiveness and success would indeed outweigh the risk of damage.

But then again, I'm just guessing here.  
(I can hardly wait for your papers and articles to be published)

All best, Peregrine.

[stonecarver]

DECORATION  ?!

in addition to grooves, we find spirals, lozenges, crosses, hatchings, chevrons, stippling and other decoration on carved stone balls. The grooves were first mentioned by EVANS in the 19th century, and he discusses the fact they could be used for cord/string (read up on them please)... this is also something i mentioned - bolas - how do you think i attached them...

Marshall 1977 published a full catalogue with illustrations

Go and have a look

Marshall D. 1977 PSA(Scot) available online

[123hopp]

But this catalogue is not mentioned on the google.com among Marshall D. sites. Wonder if you have a more detailed address!? Otherwise; are you trying to suggest your stones have signs of a primitive writing or symbols used in divining on them!? There were those controversial findings in Glozel, France, under 1920ties - still discussed on the net. And I remember some stones from Brittany, painted with symbols and left at a kind of cursus!?

[stonecarver]

Dorothy N. Marshall's 1977 paper "Carved Stone Balls" is available online. It is a 32 page detailed report, catalogue and typology with a section of excellent drawings showing the decoration on many carved stone balls, published by the Society of Antiquaries (Scotand), in their Proceedings.

Just for you 123hopp, here's a link that should help:-

http://www.socantscot.org/

You could try looking up the elaborately decorated carved stone ball from Towie, which is one of the most  famous examples and which is repeatedly cited.

Here's one good website which has a good photo:-

http://www.arcl.ed.a...y/display_9.htm

"Symbols of Power at the Time of Stonehenge" edited by Childe, Cowie and Foxon published in 1985 has excellent colour photographs of many examples... and is readily available. It is one of the primary texts for anybody researching the period, and i cannot recommend it highly enough.

I have posted three sets of references which are easy to find... if anybody has a problem obtaining any, get in touch and I'll help you out.

The Neolithic carved stone balls from Scotland have No known antecedants and are Unique in every respect to the British Isles. Make of them what you will. They are beautiful.

The National Museum of Scotland at Chambers Street, Edinburgh, Scotland has an amazing collection on display, and if you go to just one museum this year - you will probably find the NMS the most exciting (it is truly an amazing place - and entry is FREE !)    

[Peregrine]

Hi, Stonecarver,

I think that I am gradually beginning to get hooked on the Neolithic Stone Balls.  

After thinking some more on the possible use of them, I've thought of something that may combine the various views, like : ritual, weapon, bolas, game.

A good and practical use for them may be as weights on hunting- or fishing nets.
-  Their shape and weight would be correct.
-  They would serve as some sort of weapon.
-  They would be thrown like bolas.
-  Their grooves would be used to tie them to the net with strings or tongs.
-  Their carved surfaces would be seen as charms to please the gods of (hunting) fortune.

After searching the Net (no pun intended), I found an object, made of shell, which as some similarity in appearance to the stone balls.
It was found in an archaeological dig in the south of the USA and is thought to have been used for the weighing down of fishing nets.



Perhaps in it's application as weights for hunting nets, more weight was required, hence the use of stone balls ?

All best, Peregrine.