45 replies to this topic

[crag_dolomite]

The Butmir Culture was a pre Indo-European neolithic culture found on the outskirts of present day Sarajevo near where the alledged pyramid is to be found. Although an argument could be made about a possible connection to the Minoan culture on Crete. Could it realisticly be much older than the Minoan Prepalatial Period circa 2600-1900 BCE? and surely not older than the Egyptian Old Kingdom  2700–2184 BCE?? and definitely not older then the Sumerians 3500-1900 BCE???
Or could it?
What do you think?

[kevin.b]

" What do you think"
You asked?, I think we are only just beginning to realise that there has been a superior race on this planet before ourselves.
By looking at the evidence, the remnants of this previous race can be seen.
They would appear to have come to a sudden and violent end, and we are the survivors
Unless we learn from their demise, we will suffer the same ending, sudden and violent.
By looking back and learning we may learn ?
Kevin

[stonecarver]

Hi Kevin,

i don't agree with you that there was Ever a 'superior race'. If what you mean is that there was a past society that had technology which was more advanced in some respects (for example, the ability to build structures like the Egyption pyramids and the pyramids in south America) than SOME of the other societies that were contemporaneous with them or who followed them  - well yes, that's inevitable, there have always been differentials in disparate societies - visible in the way they manipulate different media. But just because another society doesn't make huge stone structures, or was preliterate, does not mean that they were in any way 'inferior'.

For example, the Roman Empire was huge... they made great use of stone structures, highly advanced metallurgy (in their arms and armour, for example), were great organisers, and were literate... but that doesn't necessarily mean they were 'superior' to the other societies that co-existed with them.

The Iron-Age peoples of Europe (commonly grouped under the misnomer 'The Celts') were pre-literate, didn't build such great stone structures, but they were very adept in other ways.... Roman art and metalwork does not generally display as high degree of artistic expression (look at the curvilinear designs on 'Celtic' iron-work). Who was superior? Nobody. They were societies that had simply evolved along different lines.

In the case of Pyramids... as an expression of grandeur, they are magnificent. But i don't think that because people were making very large stone structures indicates there was ever a superior society, simply that their achievements are manifest in the archaeological record in a medium (the stone structures themselves) that remains visible to us today, whereas the achievements of other societies might have been in domains which are less visible to archaeologists (and therefore the general public). For example, they might have been brilliant orators (through plays, singing, verse, story-telling, oral histories), or have been adept with medicines, or astronomy, or mathematics (these two are related)....

But overall, there is no evidence for an over-arching 'Lost Civilisation'. You have to remember that societies develop along different lines, at different times, and that developments might sometimes be concurrent... without any connction between the people and places of those societies. There's no great conspiracy hiding anything.

[Peregrine]

Hi all,

Crag_dolomite asked : "what do you think"?

Well, to be honest, this is very difficult to say.

On the one hand, I tend to agree with Stonecarver where he says that in a far removed past, contemporary societies may have evolved along different lines and do not necessarily have to have belonged to the culture of one superior civilisation.
This approach seems rational and as such makes a lot of sense.

On the other hand, Kevin's observations are equally valid, i.m.o..
A great number of coincidences may prompt us to search for a somewhat wider picture, whether this presumed wider picture may have existed or not.
I believe that this form of research, as such, is not a bad thing.

I strongly believe that we should keep as many options open as possible.
Theories can be readily accepted or temporarily rejected, but should i.m.o. never be totally dismissed.
Best to keep them on the back burner, in case their (whole or partial) value or merit will contribute to a better understanding of our past.

In the case of the Bosnian groundclearing/excavations, it is i.m.o. far too early to speak of a pyramid (although the mountain looks like one).
I rather think of it as a presumed ancient structure which may surprise us all.

We should ask ourselves: What exactly do we want to see proven ?

and...

How much other information can we afford to ignore ?

All best,  Peregrine.  

[stonecarver]

It seems to have gone quiet now... so i guess thay haven't found the evidence they had hoped for...

[Peregrine]

Yes, it is quiet isn't it.
Still, I hope they will grasp the opportunity, now that the eyes of the whole world are focussed on this site, to reconsider and start to excavate in a professional manner.
A professional multi-disciplined team may still be able to uncover something important.

Let's just wait and see ...

All best, Peregrine.  

[Pema]

If you look at their site you'll see they have now called in Egyptian "experts", geologists and so forth, who have backed their claims. Any new opinions? I must say, I am more doubtful than ever.

[123hopp]

Well, I agree with Stonecarver that massiveness of a stone structure is not a sign of a subtle mind. What about comparison between lyre of Apollo (or his bow) and the club of Herakles!? Display of power through an imposing artificial structure is a first thought. And here not only Egyptian pyramids but also Stonehenge and Avebury are examples. Some theocratic dynasts motivated crowds of subjects to construct objects symbolizing their God-granted power!? Worldly power comes ultimately from guarding sacred places - central for  inhabited territories. There were many cases of such developments. So; if in Bosnia there are pyramids; a large cultivated area around could be expected.

And those "lost civilizations" of Kevin. Yes, we`ve lost our previous civilization (or cultural formation) in Europe as recently as the Age of Enlightment. Before, illiterates were in majority among European societies. And they had their own oral culture and inherited ways of life, reaching back in some cases to the time of first neolithic agriculturalists. Warlords came and went; taxes were paid to alien masters in their manors but local people were living on as usual. Do you know that christianizing of a country in Central and Northern Europe (e.g. Poland, Russia, Scandinavia)was really a case of joining the all-European Christian jet-set by ruling pagan elites!? Some chapels were constructed in major castles, king`s representatitives baptized; major trade centres invaded with new Christian buildings and customs but people in the countryside were left in peace. As late as XVII c. the eastern areas of Polish Commonwealth (today`s Belarus) were treated by the catholic church as pagan areas, missionaries sent there and martyred by the locals.

Thanks to the ideas of Goethe and Herder - as well as brothers Grimm, parts of the oral traditions of the western European Lowlands (largely censored) has been saved for posteriority. It`s less known that much more complete materials has been registered by teachers in rural areas of the eastern part of Germany. There are detailed topographical descriptions of a multitude of sacred places used by local witches, their ceremonies, ways of initiation and their world of beliefs - which haven`t been superseded by templates forced through inquisitors on their minds during processes. How it was possible!? Simply, those teachers interviewed witches`grandchildren. First peasant generation that went to countryside schools laughed at those thousands-of-years traditions. But grandchildren listened happily to the narratives, which that time could be first disclosed to the public because of the previous natural disintegration of taboos surrounding witches`activity, i.e. local cults of forces of Nature.

My interest for dowsing  has been awakened when studying those archive materials in Germany.

[123hopp]

P.S. I must amend my words a bit. What the rural "wise people" really did was rather accompanying the workings of the forces of nature and enhancing them. And they really formed a closed group of initiates highly valued by their compatriots in better times. I`m not fond of any modern rootless ritualistic reconstructions of this culture. If you want to read something competent - and of literary value at the same time, try to look into :

Carlo Ginzburg - "Ecstasies. Deciphering the Witches`Sabbath" , The University of Chicago Press, 2004; ISBN 0-226-29693-8

[stonecarver]

There is no new news from this site. The only geologist who has written anything about the site is a local man employed by the 'excavator' (and therefore hardly impartial, and not from a recognised independant international conultancy or university). Even HE does not give a proper geological report - anybody could have written what he has said on the website - and he makes general comments about the shape of the hill without giving any evidence that it is not natural.

In fact, he does not give the detail any geologist would in a report... or explain what tests he made (i guess he took a look and that's it).

An internationally renowned geologist from an independant institution would happily examine the evidence and make a proper report. There seems to be some considerable reluctance on the part of the excavator to do this. Furthermore, exactly which 'experts' in Egyptology have been exployed? Who are they and what are their credentials (where do they work, what have they published).

Sorry, but given the funds available (supposedly), the fact the so-called pyramid is easily accessible by scholars and industry in Europe... it seems ridiculous that we haven't had more news. No news is good news? You bet - because if the properly trained people to do the job WERE brought in, we would soon hear the Truth.

I want to know if they are man-made or not. Why don't they let the right people in, tell us who they are and what methodologies they are using? It seems to me more like an attempt to create material for a book and to develop tourism. Everything - all the evidence, points to the fact that a purely natural feature accounts for the shape of the 'pyramid', and what little actual archaeological evidence that has been presented (exactly What Is that?), is probably Not anything to do with a pyramid.

There are more Pyramidiots out there than people who want to get to the truth. Shame...

[Pema]

123hopp, on 19 May 2006, 18:40, said:

It`s less known that much more complete materials has been registered by teachers in rural areas of the eastern part of Germany. There are detailed topographical descriptions of a multitude of sacred places used by local witches, their ceremonies, ways of initiation and their world of beliefs - which haven`t been superseded by templates forced through inquisitors on their minds during processes. How it was possible!? Simply, those teachers interviewed witches`grandchildren. First peasant generation that went to countryside schools laughed at those thousands-of-years traditions. But grandchildren listened happily to the narratives, which that time could be first disclosed to the public because of the previous natural disintegration of taboos surrounding witches`activity, i.e. local cults of forces of Nature.

hi 123hopp,

Very interesting info. Can you give your reference for this information about eastern Germany? Did you find it in Ginzburg's book or elsewhere?

Pema

[123hopp]

It`s not so easy, Pema. As in the case of dowsing, it`s a personal quest you are starting or not. The real meaning of those texts comes out first to light, when taking them back to the space, wherefrom they`ve once come. But in the process, you`ll become part of the spiritual pattern of a specific countryside and it`ll be hardly possible afterwards to share meaningful insights with anybody from the outside. Anyway, if you want - you can take up the end of this Ariadne`s thread at the

Stiftung Martin-Opitz-Bibliothek
Berliner Platz 5
44 623 Herne
www.martin - opitz -bibliothek.de

They have ambition of gathering all folkloric materials on the "Ostelbisches Raum" of former Deutsches Reich. "Area behind the Elbe river" is the hint at the domination of rural landscapes, which begins to the East of the river. But there`s nothing "ready-to-digest" in their materials. What you need at the very first is perhaps a "filter of meaning". What is this!? Well; say, you are living in this countryside and at some point you are starting to wonder what is "it", what`s lacking around. In the process of looking for "it ", you are getting the next clue.

[123hopp]

Well, isn`t this an exaggeration to treat some folkloristic studies as a Quest!? Hmm...you know, Laponic shamans don`t bother helping people coming from outside of their own "precinct". Why!? Because their psychic forces come from being "one" with their territories!! Now am I talking!?
And here`s from the cover of "Ecstasies" :
"Weaving early accounts of witchcraft - trial records, ecclesiastical tracts, folklore and popular iconography - into new and startling patterns, Carlo Ginzburg presents in Ecstasies compelling evidence of a hidden shamanistic culture that flourished across Europe and in England for thousands of years."
And then later :
"Ginzburg here partially rehabilitates an older point of view, that the witch-cult represented a survival of ancient mysteries and the practice of shamanistic ceremonies forbidden by official Catholocism...It is a work of uncompromising scholarship and erudition, but it is not intended for a scholar alone.It is also a rich tapestry of anecdote and incident, a chamber of horrors, curiosity shop and medieval bestiary in one."
Which shamanistic sub-formations of Europe are contained in this book. Here they are:
- medieval followers of Diana, Herodias, Bensozia, Madame Horiente, Perchta and Holda, Queen of the Fairies from Sicily,
- good witches Benandanti from Friuli
- werewolves an witches from Livonia (Estland under Swedish rule)in their own narratives about "combats in ecstasy" for the fertility potential for their respective territories in a year to come,
- Rumanian calusari,
- "zduhaci" of BOSNIA, HERZEGOVINA and Montenegro,
- taltos of Hungary, etc.
Ginzburg analyzes Eurasian conjectures and comes to a conclusion that European witches constitute a branch of Euroasiatic shamanism.
And at the last, he discusses broadly the survivals of shamanic traditions, that could be discerned within Greek mythology.  

Now, I suppose, I`ve answered to your all questions, Pema!?
And this "pyramid" in Bosnia. To avoid accusations of hijacking the thread, I should probably maintain that it`s really a kind of a Blocksberg, where Bosnian "zduhaci" used to hold their sabbaths!? But I really don`t know...

[123hopp]

I`ve tried in some threads on this Forum, as I`ve promised to its "bosses", to review the issues of dowsing and folklore (shamanistic studies)as disciplines, which could possibly help an archaeologist to understand the world-view of the megalith creators or/and the "making" of megalithic landscapes.
There are so many books of different quality on those mystical themes that it`s really needed, I suppose, to get to the "roots" with those themes. So; I did what I could in this direction, without interfering with any "magical" taboos or interests of people making living from "magick", I suppose!?
Mystical unity with what!?...as a source of what!? Here maybe goes the boundary of personal integrity!?. I want only to round up the theme saying that it was probably an everyday unreflected activity those days and who knows - maybe in our days, too. It`s only that it`s hidden so deep in our subconscience!? Well, it`s maybe a price we pay for living in our overcrowded "ants`nests"!?

[Pema]

Thanks for the website 123hopp.  

We could get into a discussion about the history of witchcraft/shamanism, but then we'd be waaay off-topic. Anyway, I appreciate your views, very interesting.

Nevertheless I still don't think the Bosnian pyramid is real--or, let's say I would need much better evidence. I am completely open to ideas and discussion of pre-Christian European spirituality and religion, but that does not mean we can (or need to) create false information. The zduhaci didn't necessarily need a pyramid to be powerful!...

By the way--maybe everyone else knows this already but I don't--are you an experienced dowser? I think there are several on this forum, no? I think it is fascinating...