23 replies to this topic

[kevin.b]

Bonjour , mon ami, perigrine, just get two dowsing rods.
The ultimate of these will be solid gold, dormier, Dor, number soixant dix et neuf.
With two rods in your hands you will have the keys to all.
I have the keys, I will show you, it is so simple, only the meak shall inherit the earth ?
Kevin

[Peregrine]

Hi all,

Seen from a certain perspective, there might be a relationship between Stonehenge and the crescent with V-rods, which is depicted on the so-called Pictish Stones.

In the link below is a drawing which clarifies what I was talking about before the weekend.

Here

Does all this mean that the crescent with V-rods symbolises the summersolstice at Stonehenge ?

The symbol seems to fit the notion perfectly.

What do you think, could there be a relationship between the two ?

All best, Peregrine.

[stonecarver]

Thanks Peregrine, for that post. I have to say, there IS a similarity between the Pictish symbol and the image you posted. That's fascinating in itself, and I will have to read more about this... However (oh-oh, here goes Stonecarver the Sceptic Again ! hehe)      

Just because an image, object or structure LOOKS like something else, it doesn't mean they are actually related. The Pictish symbols are thousands of years later than Stonehenge, and geographically disparate. Still, good of you to notice, and you can be sure I'll be reading up on both!

Cheers, Stonecarver.

[kevin.b]

Perigrine, Always think gold, dor, look for this substance in the barrows, it will be lozenge shaped with straight lines on it.
look at all the alters around the globe and see gold.
So where does gold come from ?, in the beginning there was light.
Kevin

[Peregrine]

@Stonecarver,

Thanks for your reaction to my post.
I really appreciate your scepticism   , no "theory" should go without it.
You rightly state that the Pictish symbols are thousands of years later than Stonehenge and geographically disparate.
Yet, and this is nagging me in no small measure, who exactly were these Pictish people, who were their forebears and where did they live? (all over the British Isles?).
Are the, clearly non-Celtic, symbols of the crescent with V-rods and the double discs with Z-rod part of their heritage with regards to their origin and identity?
Why does the Dyce-2 stone show us horse-shoe shapes within circles ?
Does this point to knowledge about the purpose and use of Stonehenge or of stone circles in general ?

I know these are a lot of questions, but he, that's me.  

To assume that the symbol of the crescent with V-rods points to the summer solstice may seem far-fetched, I know.
It would presume that those who carved it would also posess a great deal of astronomical knowledge.
But then again, we do attribute the same amount of knowledge to the people who built Stonehenge !?
Could the knowledge that the original operators of Stonehenge posessed have lingered on
in the form of some potent symbols ?

Symbols are very powerful things and it is difficult to say where they came from or how old exactly they are.(especially so if we have no clue as to what they mean).

I'd like to invite everyone to ponder the idea and provide input, scepticism, criticism, etc.
I believe we can only learn by keep on asking ourselves questions.

All best, Peregrine.

[123hopp]

Just very generally. Each idea has as if its life cycle, when in "flesh". First comes an inventor i.e. the one, who "draws" down an idea and finds  practical embodiments for it. Then, if it`s been proven as working, it can be generalized into a symbol. At the beginning, such a symbol can be still clearly associated with its beginnings but over time this connection is perceived weaker and weaker.  
Now, I suppose those Pictish stones could easily use such symbols/ideas, alienated from their original astronomical context, to express e.g. an idea of reincarnation. If you wanted to present those symbols as having been perceived by their users in their original astronomical context, then IMO you should prove those Pictish stones were used within a local Pictish observatory. Is there any of this kind in Scotland!?
Or else; did you want to maintain the Picts were the aboriginal inhabitants of the whole Britain and the "Old" Stonehenge is theirs!?

[Peregrine]

[quote]<< At the beginning, such a symbol can be still clearly associated with its beginnings but over time this connection is perceived weaker and weaker.>>[/quote]I think that over time, the understanding of the initial meaning of the symbol is percieved weaker and weaker and finally is lost.
There is a very subtile difference here, i.m.o..
Over time, the symbol may acquire a different meaning, e.g. a connection with the origin and ethnic identity of a people.[/quote]<< then IMO you should prove those Pictish stones were used within a local Pictish observatory. Is there any of this kind in Scotland!?>>[/quote]

I am not aware of any Pictish astronomical observatories in known history.
The symbols on the so-called Pictish stones however could possibly be remnants of a body of knowledge, posessed by their far ancestors.
Nobody actually knows who the Picts or their far ancestors were or how they called themselves. Nevertheless, the symbols are there.

[quote]<<Or else; did you want to maintain the Picts were the aboriginal inhabitants of the whole Britain and the "Old" Stonehenge is theirs!? >>[/quote]

Again, nobody knows who the Picts or their far ancestors were and thus, we cannot exclude the possibility that they may have been part of the aboriginal inhabitants of the British Isles.

All best,  Peregrine.

[stonecarver]

The Book "Sacred Stones, Sacred Places" has some wonderful images of Pictish symbols... it was written by Marianna Lines with brilliant photographs by Paul Turner. Saint Andrews Press, ISBN 0-7152-0652-4

The Picts were a people who inhabited north-east Scotland north of the Firth of Forth in the Early Medieval period... they are first mentioned by the Romans (as a group) in AD 297 and rose to prominence after the Roman Emperor Septimus Severus's campaign against the Caledonians in AD 208 when the Roman's left behind a power vaccuum. Their nation existed for c500 years and disappeared suddenly... or was merged with other groups extant c800 AD. They can be seen as the last true 'Celtic' peoples of the British Isles...

Try the Osprey Book "Pictish Warrior AD 297–841" ISBN 1-8417-6346-2 or their other good book

"Arthur and the Anglo-Saxon Wars" which has some brilliant pictures ISBN 0-8504-5548-0

Hope that helps....

[Peregrine]

Hi Stonecarver,

Thanks for your info.

I think that the main problem with how we choose to look at the Picts is, that we tend to see them only inside a certain timeframe which indeed lasted some 500 years.
This distinct group of People, to whom the name Pictii was attributed, lived in the British Isles long before the Celts arrived here and as such may have had i.m.o. a very specific culture and form of art.
I strongly believe that the symbols we see on the Stones, carved in the 500year-period which is always referred to, are only the last remnants of a far earlier and perhaps far more sophisticated society.
To see the Picts as the last true 'Celtic' peoples of the British Isles is only correct in so far, that they ultimatly mixed in with the Celtic peoples since the arrival of the latter.
I'd rather see them as the descendants of the last true aboriginal inhabitants of the British Isles.

So, who exactly were the People we hold responsible for carving these extraordinary and clearly non-Celtic symbols on the so-called Pictish Stones?
Apart from the name Pictii (Painted Ones), which was given to them by the Romans during their conquest of the British Isles, not much is really known about their origins.
The first written account we have for this name is from the Roman orator Eumenius in 297 AD where he refers to the Britons as ‘already being accustomed to the Pictii and the Hiberni as enemies’.
Early Irish myth though gives ‘Cruithne’ as the ancestor of the Pictish people.
According to this myth, the seven sons of  Cruithne, an Irish King, gave their names to the seven provinces or divisions of the Pictish kingdom.
In 731 AD, Bede reported that the Picts were of Scythian origin and that upon occupying the North of Britain, they held to a matrilineage with regard to their kings list.
Several scholars and investigators have tried to find the true origins of the Picts through language, racial features, place-names, Pagan religion, etc.
It is proposed that the Pictish language is a remnant of the languages prevalent in Europe before the spread of the Indo-European language family and that there could be a relationship with Basque and perhaps even with Etruscan.
None of the mentioned approaches however seem conclusive and as such leave a lot of room for speculation as to the ‘way of the Picts’.
Taking the above into consideration, there is not much that we really know about the origin of the Pictish People.
The only thing we can be reasonably sure of is that they were descendants of an ancient People that lived in the British Isles, long before the Celts arrived here in the 6th –4th century BC and drove the original inhabitants away or took dominion of the land.
In historical times we only find them in Scotland, north of the Clyde and we see their power slowly decline until, with the arrival of Kenneth MacAlpin, they finally vanished in the mid to late 9th century AD.
The only tangible legacy they have left us is their art, carved over and over again in the large and impressive standing Stones of Scotland.
These enigmatic symbols must have been of great significance to them and were perhaps their only remaining link with their past and with their origin and identity.
And perhaps these extraordinary strong symbols are the last evidence of an ancient tradition of storing information/instruction about an astronomical knowledge in stone.
If their far ancestors indeed lived all over the British Isles, these images on the Pictish Stones might even stand in a close relationship to the many megalithic structures that are found here and as such can have a clear astronomical meaning.
It is not to be expected that we will ever find out who the Pictish People really were, what exactly their believes were or what they called themselves, but perhaps through their symbolism we can get a glance at how they may have interpreted the movement of the stars in the night sky.
All we can come up with is of course only speculation or at best a theory but the magnificent symbols deserve in my opinion a serious attempt of re-interpretation.

The, in my eyes, mild 'rivalry' that can sometimes be percieved between the present-day English and Scots has raised barriers which are extremely hard to overcome in order to accept a possible  'hidden' common heritage.
I think this is a great pity, because, for example, the symbol of the double discs withZ-rod is very important for Britain i.m.o. and may rank in importance among the yin/yang symbol, the swastika (in it's original meaning), the cretan labyrinth, etc.
They all speak in their own way of opposites, mirroring, reversal, wholeness and may have a common origin.

Yes, I think the so-called Pictish symbols are important and are neglected for far too long.


All best,  Peregrine