59 replies to this topic

[stonecarver]

There has been much discussion here about the monuments which incorporate stone in their structure (stone circles, barrows, cairns), but far less about those which are  constructed primarily from earth... and I would like to start a discussion about them (as they often get relgated because they generally are not so impressive to look at).

Stone tools are often found in relation to monuments. This is inevitable, as some monuments were places where the dead were interred, and conspicuous consumption (the placing of objects with the deceased) is a common occurrence. But there are also many examples of stone tools being deposited near or with monuments which were not funerary. Perhaps the best example from the British Isles are those known as causewayed enclosures.

In many places in Europe we find stone tools randomly (apparently) deposited in the landscape - and there are many ways this can be interpreted (stray finds, lost objects etc). But where there is a connection between a monument type and stone tools (where this is not funerary), how do we interpret the monument as a result?

[kevin.b]

stonecarver, excellent thread, though I have tried on another forum to talk about this subject ?
I would add something though, when you say the sites are made of earth, I would question that, because the specific material they are constructed from will be a great clue as to the reason they were constructed.
I am very biased about why I believe many of these sites were built, and I include so called roman forts in this as well.
So I don't want to just blast in with my theories, but think about the material?, we know the specific properties of so many materials, people of thousands of years ago, will have known in minute detail all the qualities available from natural stones.
Kevin

[stonecarver]

People were making causeawayed enclosures from soil because they wanted to build a long-lasting public monument/structure, in the absence of other building materials (or ones which would survive the test of time).

This post was reserved for the dicsussion about the role of stone tools and monuments.

[stonecarver]

Well.... I was hoping to keep it very closely fixed to subject, but as Grooved ware is one of my passions, I guess we can if you wish - it's a Forum after all.... and I don't see why you shouldn't talk about anything which might be archaeologically related - - fire away!  

[kevin.b]

Stonecarver, I don't know if you have noticed this posting on the portal, it has had a few comments relating to bullshit, but not from me.
Whether it is right or wrong ?, I feel is irrelevant, it raises good ideas away from the usual funerary ideas.
It is under the name of jcantunes,  I believe there was a  professor in Portugal called s d antunes?
  http://www.henges.no.sapo.pt
Kevin

[Vlad]

Deposits of tools in a sacred environment seems to me connected with the idea of a "handworker" - god. And not only with the type of Hephaistos. There were many gods, who made the world (or only hammered out the Sun and the Moon) in this way. Thus; the meaning of those deposited tools could be "read" as a worshipper helping the creator in his deeds!?

[jcantunes]

I decided to register to Stone Pages!
Megalithic has too much bullshit, as you said kevin.

I've decided to publish the site henges because few people understand what I'm trying to explain.
I would like to have more feedback and spread the message.

For example, notice the icons that were added to this site, in the upper menu.
I read them like symbolic descriptions in stones:
(from left to right)
1 - One henge with a standing stone (small circle in the middle) with a rope connected to the axle rotating over the standing stone. The large circle corresponds to the nutating structure.
2 - The zig zag of ropes
3 - spiral means to roll the rope arround some axle
4 - The same as 3
5 and 6 - have no idea
7 - Linear henge as explained in the site
8 - Nutaing circular structure
9 - A person, if near a circle he could be holding the nutating structure

J. Caeiro Antunes
I'm an Aerospace Engineer,
the mechanic principle is real and it works.

[archaeo]

<<<< stonecarver ... about the monuments ....  constructed primarily from earth... I would like to start a discussion about them ...
Stone tools are often found in relation to monuments. ... >>>>

Pottery, with a well-known sequence, offers evidence too.  One large, early henge is a type site for both a pottery, "Windmill Hill," and for the "causewayed enclosure" earthen work.  Read: Cleal, Rosamund 2002. Great Sites; Windmill Hill, British Archaeology 67
was at http://www.britacrh.ac.uk/ba/batype 67/feat3.shtml though not found this day.

I guess the four "great henges" of south England are in a class by themselves.

I find the henge-like circular monuments in North America interesting in their variety.  Newark has one massive, 360 m elliptical circle with an inner ditch and entrance parallels and another near true circle with a mound and an octagon attached.  At Marietta, Grave Creek, and elsewhere, moats and embankments surround conic mounds.  The mounds have variety too; two truncated pyramid mounds stand in Marietta Square, while Newark Observatory Mound and Seip Mound are linear mounds.  The complex geometric Hopewell sites offer a unique level of expression with earthworks, often incorporating mounds.

[kevin.b]

Stonecarver, sorry on reflection perhaps ?, I should have started a seperate thread for the jcantunes bit ?
If you want to move it out ,it must I suppose be classed as alternate ?
Kevin

[senua]

Dont know an awfull lot about henges,causewayed enclosures etc,just what i've read mostly.
I remember a Time Team programme where they were excavating a Causewayed Enclosure and there was duscussion between two archaeologists about weather it was a sacred monument or used as a animal enclosure.
From what I remember of the programme they had found a lot of butchered animal bones and high phosphate levels in areas of the enclosure.One archaeologist interpretated this as evidence of a stock enclosure or even a settlement.
Others disagreed and said it was a sacred enclosure and the bone and phosphate evidence was signs of feasting.
Have read this book :The Creation of Monuments: Neolithic Causewayed Enclosures in the British Isles  
Alastair Oswald, Carolyn Dyer, Martyn Barber,ISBN 1873592426.
From reading this book the impression I got was that more excavation was needed.
This site has a bit about them: http://www.eng-h.gov...cd/cenc.htm,the main site lists all different monument types from different periods:  http://www.eng-h.gov.../mcd/intro2.htm
At the moment have the book: Henge Monuments of the British Isles,by Jan Harding,ISBN 0752425080 which I will start to read soon.Looks interesting,i'll let people know if it's any good.
Be nice to have a definite answer as to what various earthern monuments were used for.Different things at different times maybe.

[stonecarver]

It's a very good Book (standard text for undergraduates) about henges, but causewayed enclosures are something else, and if you look at many of Richard Bradley's books, you'll see he has written some interesting theories about them...

Just wondered if anybosy else had any...

Were they trade centres? habitation sites? ceremonial centres?

[kevin.b]

Stonecarver, As you havn't moved the jcantunes post, I hope it is OK to speak about it?
I felt it fitted in with your origonal question, because it proposes an alternate use to any other, but also, all the materials would have been organic, except for a small collection of routine maintenance type tools.
Sort of a modern tool box, They must have been experts in rope manufacture , to haul the stones around, and to tie wooden buildings together?
I spent an interesting hour trawling google , learning about ropes.
All the organic materials allied to ancient sites will have long ago decomposed, so the bronze and stone artifacts left are surely a tiny part of a puzzle, but because they are, they perhaps have dominated ideas ?
The alignment lines in jcantunes drawings were what really caught my eye though.
I walked along the causeway near SH, several weeks ago, looking in my alternate way at it, if you can think of ropes going in opposite directions at each side of this causeway, you will have some idea of what I can SEE, and the embankments act as guides
Kevin

[archaeo]

<<<< Senua, 7 June 2006 ....
At the moment have the book: Henge Monuments of the British Isles, by Jan Harding... >>>>

I found it a great reference and an important visual tour.  I highly recommend it, though some sites may be left out.   What taxonomy/nomenclature prevails today would make a good read, and how many sites to add to Harding's great tour.