32 replies to this topic

[shiny]

According to the  "Concise Oxford Diictionary", a henge is a "prehistoric monument consisting of a circle of stone or wood uprights".  My archaeology books say the word henge means hang, refering to the crossing part of a trilithon, or, ..... "uniquely British monument comprising a round area 30--400 metres across, enclosed by a bank and a (usually internal) ditch".  [Jacquetta Hawkes].  Which is right?

[Jimit]

I think that the definition has been changed in recent years so that a Henge does not have to contain stones. More info here... http://www.answers.c...=answertip:more
Jim.

[belshade]

Just to add to Jim's comment - for practical purposes the Jaquetta Hawkes definition would seem to be the one accepted today. It has only recently been generally known that stone circles used to be timber circles. The "hanging stone" type of monument is pretty well limited to Stonehenge - the "real" henge there would appear to be the ditch and bank.
Desmond.

[shiny]

Thanks for your input guys....      Please bear with me,    I'm new to archaeology and computers, and i'm trying to get my old head round a new subject for me . So Seahenge isn't (wasn't) a henge by the currently accepted definition.  Am I right in thinking that its in a class of it's own?    Am I also right in thinking that Seahenge must have been physically buried in the peat as it would have rotted away in the centuries that the peat would take to cover and preserve it without help?      Shiny.

[stonecarver]

What is especially unusual about Stonehenge, is that the rampart or bank of earth created by the digging of the ditch is usually on the outside of the ditch, at Stonehenge however, the bank of earth is on the Inside... in that respect it is more similar to Causewayed Enclosures... another type of prehistoric monument...

We Might think of Stonehenge as two monuments (or more, but let's not go there for now)... ie a henge type circular structure, with stone circles and other stone settings inside it, rather than as a single entity... but this probably has more to do with the chronology of the site than original intention (different people, over 1500 years added to what was already there)...

[tyrebagger]

shiny, on 18 August 2006, 4:52, said:

Thanks for your input guys....      Please bear with me,    I'm new to archaeology and computers, and i'm trying to get my old head round a new subject for me . So Seahenge isn't (wasn't) a henge by the currently accepted definition.  Am I right in thinking that its in a class of it's own?    Am I also right in thinking that Seahenge must have been physically buried in the peat as it would have rotted away in the centuries that the peat would take to cover and preserve it without help?      Shiny.

Seahenge ( a lazy name adopted by the press I think-you're right, its not a henge as such although there may have been once) is in a class of its own, in the sense of monuments we can still see today. I feel that it gives a very good idea of the timber circles that existed prior to the erection of stone circles.

Yes, it was buried until the tides and shifting sands uncovered it.

[archaeo]

shiny 16 August 2006 ....
<<<< "uniquely British monument comprising a round area 30--400 metres across, enclosed by a bank and a (usually internal) ditch".  [Jacquetta Hawkes].  ...>>>>

I would add there is a typology of henges by Atkinson.  The three almost identical henge monuments on Thornborough Moor are Class IIa (bank between ditches), for example.  What of Newark Great Circle in Ohio?  http://jqjacobs.net/...aeo/newark.html  It has a bank and inner ditch.  What to call it?  The henge typology is "British" and not Hopewell!

Also, Hawkes is off the mark on "uniquely British" unless this is a very restricted definition.  Dowth henge?  There are other 'earthen circles' in Ireland, with different archaeological names.  Concepts have been developed within archaeological models that may be outdated now if not soon.

[chimera]

Indo-European Brahmins of Scythian-Greek Bactria ruled Angkor Wat, and Thailand and reached east Australia.
(Yeah, big topic but there is stuff to validate that... but not now).
Word-list:
Bundjalung east Aust. "bora" territory dance-ring with circular earth bank. (Bundj. has about 10% Sanskrit words).
Cambodian Skt. "borei" ancient city.
Thailand Skt.      "bara" territory dance-room of king. ancient city.
                         "cambara" teaching temple.
Latin.                  "camera" room  "barai" man
Fr.                      "chambre" chamber, barracks of comrades, Cambrai, Cambria.
It is said that Apollo danced at Stonehenge. The lyre of Mercury/Apollo is carved on the ceiling of Newgrange, which is aligned to winter sunset (and opp. summer sunrise..) as Apollo's temple at Delphi. The sun-god Shiva/Apollo had a territory centre which can be understood by looking at the scattered vestiges.
chimera
(Thai "chamara" regalia tassel of chamari deer-hair is seen in chamarre/chimere robe of UK kings and bishops
and regal KG tassels).

[Pete G]

chimera, on 10 September 2006, 8:13, said:

It is said that Apollo danced at Stonehenge.

Really? Who said that then? got a reference?

[chimera]

"Diodorus Siculus, writing in the 1st century B.C., said that "certain sacred offerings wrapped in wheat straw come from the Hyperboreans into Scythia, whence they are taken over by the neighboring peoples in succession until they get as far west as the Adriatic. From there they are sent south, and the first Greeks to receive them are the Dodonaeans. Then, continuing southward, they reach the Malian gulf, cross to Euboea, and are passed on from town to town as far as Carystus. Then they skip Andros, the Carystians take them to Tenos, and the Tenians to Delos. That is how these things are said to reach Delos at the present time." So, from very ancient times, there was this practice of the Hyperboreans sending sacred offerings to the Island of Delos. Now, the Island of Delos is supposedly the birthplace of Phoebus Apollo, whose mother was Leto. Supposedly he was born on Mt. Cynthus. All of the legends talk about stylized dances and the oldest things about Stonehenge say that it was the Temple of Apollo and that Apollo danced there all night at certain periods of time. Every 19 years, I believe." end quote. (1st site on google search).
I have read similar views in P.B.Ellis on Celts.
chimera

[stonecarver]

Incidentally there is a possibility that early translations from the ancient Greek are suspect. Apollo did not necessarily refer to the God figure. It appears to have been a term which might also have been used for the sun itself. Ergo, yes, the sun might be said to dance at Stonehenge.

There is no (as far as I can determine) clear evidence for any connection between Stonehenge and Mycenaen (or indeed, later ancient) Greece. This idea was fashionable amongst antiquarians and certain archaeologists in the latter part of the 19th and earlier 20th century, but consensus has shifted in the face of a lack of actual evidence.

Radio-carbon dating has sounded the death-knell on those theories (which unfortunately are still prevalent in lots of what we might politely call 'fringe' archaeology, part of a marketting stratgey by the more sensational authors who put pen to paper - to sell books).

[chimera]

Yes, it would be likely that "Apollo" meant the sun dancing, as Greeks used their own gods to explain the gods of the simple barbarians. Celts used Greek gods as metaphors ("Herakles is for us the power of speech"). Greeks listened to brahmins in Commagene north Syria, from where came Brahmi script for Tocharian and Devanegari etc. languages of India. If Apollo=Shiva sun-god, there is a link to the dancing god/sun.
I believe that the knob-and-socket joints in Stonehenge lintels are the same as at Mycenae lion-gate.
chimera

[stonecarver]

Yes the mortice and tenon joints on the trilithons at Stonehenge are similar to those at the lion Gate at Mycenae... however, they also Pre-Date the Mycenaen. But, is it so very unusual that a single construction feature is seen somewhere else in the world at another time altogether?

What's interesting  about Stonehenge, is that the first phase has more similarities with causewayed enclosures than with what we think of as henges (which are a very poorly defined group anyway). It was being used as a cemetery as far as we can tell, in its first phase.

[chimera]

Apollo sun-god of Delphi has another connection - the circle henge. As Delphi was a  pre-Dorian site, and linked to Echidna snake (mother of Celts), then Mycenae comes back into the picture. But the chronology is a mess...!
Further confusion is added by Old English links to IE concepts of mount Meru, amid 7 seas in 7 ring-mountains.
"Maere" temple of Norse means "praise", as does OE "maere": " famous, proclaim, set limit". "Mearc" is "mark,limit" and "mearoc" is "boundary oak". "Mor" became "moor. mountain" and "mur" in general languages of w.Europe means "stone wall". "Merlo" is corner-posts of castle-battlement as a strong wall.
Is it possible that embanked ring-ditches held water - are they horizontal level? Or sectioned off to hold an arc of water? The Norse Midgard had a wall around the gods, surrounded by ocean and Jormungand snake.
This is all an Irish stew, but possibly it all derives from a common root                ?
chimera

[stonecarver]

There is no evidence that causewayed enclosures or henges were used to hold water. They are often found on sloping ground, and many have more than one entrance.