32 replies to this topic

[kevin.b]

Stonecarver, Water will flow along a slope?
Water can hold light ( energy ), dependant on which direction you allow this flow to go, the majority of the flow will go?
I go with the flow?
Kevin

[chimera]

Just to clarify, do you mean the whole area or the ditch did not hold water?  Entrance ways as dams would allow water to be held at different levels in arc sections.  Sloping ground indicates I am wrong in those cases as horizontal water would give the desired appearance.  Would water sit level at Stonehenge?
Chimera

[Jimit]

I believe that when Atkinson excavated part of the ditch and bank at Stonehenge he found that the ditch was  a collection of seperate pits broken through to one another and he surmised that the bank was the more important feature. The site is also on a slope, halfway up a hill and on chalk which is one of the most porous rocks known. There was no trace of a waterproof lining such as clay which would have been needed to have kept the water in nor any sign of water living animals or plants. I believe that these conditions would apply to most if not all of the causewayed camps found and excavated.
Just think of the practicalities, dragging a bucket of water up a hill from a water source perhaps several miles away, pouring it into the ditch and seeing it disappear within seconds. I don't think so.
The quarry ditch around Silbury is a different matter as it lies in the flood plain of the Kennet and often fills with water during wet periods.
Jim.

[kevin.b]

Twice a month, but more powerfully once a month, due to the moon, the water suddenly upsurges from springs that otherwise appear as though they are dry.
Those that know this often attend places where this happens, they leave offerings to the earths re-birth ( as they see It? )
this is mainly women, they are more atuned to monthly cycles.( they may also be really atuned to this cycle, blood in the water is something the aborigonals still do?)
Sometimes this upsurge of water happens where you would least expect it, unless you have a reason to suspect that water is close by underground.
The water only upsurges for seven minutes, I have witnessed this several times, if I hadnt been half expecting it I would have perhaps given it a sort of mystical storyline?
The moon affects all the water on the planet, not just the seas.
If you were a people that worshipped the earth, and were well aware of every little thing that happens on it, would you give this happening any signifigance?
The water tables are been shot to hell at the moment,abstraction is rife by profit driven maniacs, therefore you may never experience this happening, but we have no idea about the water tables of thousands of years ago, just imagine if the henge suddenly started to fill with water, and just as suddenly dry up again?, would they know about the reason why, they would know tides, but inland.
We now have too much knowledge to really comprehend what anything like this may have meant to them, but unless we position ourselves somewhat in their shoes, how will we ever comprehend them?
Kevin

[stonecarver]

Sorry, but there is no evidence for this phenomenon... and archaeologists working with soils on a micro-scale Are able to determine whether a site was water-logged (whether that was seasonally or not). Micro-faunal remains, pollen remains and silts can tell us whether a site has been seasonally water-logged, and the resultant signs would be visible in the archaeological record through this specialised line of work.

There is no evidence for henges or causewayed enclosures being used as dams. Simple. And chalk soils are amongst the most porous there is. Water goes deep, or settled into the river-valleys/combes. It's a far-out idea, but... it doesn't hold any water (excuse the pun!).  

[rachstebbs]

stonecarver, on 26 September 2006, 9:14, said:

There is no evidence that causewayed enclosures or henges were used to hold water. They are often found on sloping ground, and many have more than one entrance.

Actually this is part of my dissertation, and there is plenty of evidence to suggest that at least some henge ditches were designed to hold water. Milfield North and Milfield South both had fine sediment in the ditch that could be indicative of rain wash. Marden henge enclosure actually has the R. Avon make up one of its sides and Cairnpapple Hill had glacial clay removed from everywhere on site, except in the ditches, which would have caused rainwater to be trapped. Also some cursus monuments seem to have ditches that flood for at least part of the year. These are just a few examples to give an idea, and what the purpose of the water is, I'm not too sure. However, I'm not entirely convinced it is for 'ritual' purposes, as I'm not convinced that all henges are necessarily religious monuments, just to throw a spanner in the works!!  

rachstebbs

[stonecarver]

Hi Rach,

what is the evidence they were designed to hold water? (as opposed to them doing so incidentally). "Sediment in a ditch that could be indicative of rain wash" does not indicate that it was a design feature... but I'm pleased you've raised the point as I hadn't read anything suggesting that...

Like you though, I don't know that they were ceremonial monuments, but that's the way the textbooks/academic papers seem to lean...

[rachstebbs]

The ditches at Cairnpapple Hll had the glacial clay left in them when it was removed from everywhere else on site, which means that rainwater would have been retained, Bullring has something similar going on too, but I'm currently trawling excavation reports for more!  AS yet there's not that much literature, because no one's ever thought about it really except for Jan Harding, but not really in any great detail. (This is all in Harding, J. 2003, Henge Monuments of the British Isles, Stroud, Tempus)

Its much easier to jump to conclusions and shout ritual if you don't know what's going on, although I haven't found a single book or paper which would ever talk about any function other than religious, apart from in the context of stone axe trade, but that only seems to apply to a few henges...


I'm actually looking at the proximity of henges to rivers, so this has just developed as an aside really.

Tis all very interesting, might even get a Ph.D out of it!! (Fingers crossed)


rachstebbs

[shiny]

"I'm actually looking at the proximity of henges to rivers........."

I've spent the past 3 hours looking at the proximity of stone circles to rivers :

Long Meg to the Eden.
Stonehenge to the Avon.
Castlerigg to the Greta.
Etc.

PS.Arbor Low is being awkward.

[stonecarver]

Seems a bit like looking for car parks near roads...

Britain's a tiny country less than 1000 miles from North to South... and the longest 20 rivers have a combined length of over 2500 miles. Then add the length of all the other rivers, and all of the tributaries and streams... it is hardly surprising henges are near rivers. Prehistoric monuments reflect where people were living (along the valley bottoms)... and that's well-covered in the archaeological literature.

Rivers were also part of a communications network during the Neolithic and Bronze Age... and they depended upon them as a water source for craft activities (and probably washing)... so the corrrelation between rivers and monuments is obvious.

(Wikipedia)

http://en.wikipedia....f_Great_Britain

Back to henges... "Sediment in a ditch that could be indicative of rain wash" does not indicate that it was a design feature...

[rachstebbs]

Yes there are a helluva lot of rivers and you are right in saying that there is no surprise in a correllation between henges and rivers, but no one has ever looked at why this in detail before. The aim was to confirm that all henges were near rivers and then to ask why this was.

I thought it was going to be along the lines of "there's loads of rivers and its good building land near them...makes sense". However this may not be the case, Ive found some interesting patterns that suggest other reasons for the close proximity to rivers... ooh, mysterious am I!

What about the henges at Thornborough, very little settlement evidence in later Neo in Swale-Ure valley?

You might have got me on the sediment though, i haven't read enough about the sites yet...

Try R. Dove for Arbor Low, Off hand I think it's a couple of km away max but haven't got my maps with me...

rachstebbs

[shiny]

I'd never accuse Arbor Low of hiding in a river valley, nor is it just a cock stride from flowing water, like many other henges, circles.

[kevin.b]

Think about the water underground.


Dont forget the moon, and all other celestial magnets, you would desire to know where they are, at all times.
http://news.national...moongarden.html

Kevin

[Nigel]

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I thought garbage like that was to be kept out of this part of the forum.

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