Sean , Someone sends you a pic you don’t enquire where the pic came from ,where the stone was sited ,it’s name , is it the entire group of markings , anything else similar in the area  ,what the landscape setting might be  yet you “feel” that it represents mounds ,  the more specific “barrows “ was actually the term used originally ,and that is enough for you to include in your essay , that is clearly pure fantasy , not even an opinion never mind science ,and you have the nerve to say that “Opinions mean nothing, if you can't back them up with evidence. That's how science works.” True , now where is your evidence for your fantastical belief  about the markings representing barrows ?
What a scientist would do is note that if  the markings resembled real barrows in the landscape ,not their imagination ,and then try to find other examples elsewhere as well as attempting to disprove the idea .
Much  of your “explanation “ is quotes from others that have nothing to do with the matter at hand ..The first part of the George Nash quote is opinion and unfalsifiable and I  can think of other interpretations that are more likely and more importantly also falsifiable  , the second says nothing that most would disagree with and neither say anything about the your belief about the markings .
It is clear that you do not appreciate that that in rock art studies the real experts are not self –proclaimed academics but the amateur , independent researcher found in every region where rock art is to be found ,they are the ones who actually know the markings and discover them  ,the academics know this too as does anyone involved in the study . In Ireland and France it is slightly different as so much of the most interesting rock art is not in the open air but in passage tombs and caves that are not as accessible as open air sites . Consequently academics do have better opportunities for studying them , in this case the experts are people like George Eogan ,Elisabeth Shee-Twohig and latterly Guillaume Robin ,an endorsement from any of those would be a coup but I won’t hold my breath .

Two more of your quotes .
“There are in fact two things, science and opinion; the former begets knowledge, the latter ignorance.” Hippocrates

George Bernard Shaw once said, “He who can, does. He who cannot, teaches.” It should read, “He who can, does. He who cannot, criticizes those who can.”

What I “do” is scientific , I discover and record previously unrecorded rock art motifs providing a ten figure grid reference , measurement of the motifs , photographs of the motifs and the landscape setting they are found  ,if there are any other notable points about the stones these are included e.g. in the case of the markings you were used there are pics of a compass showing that three of the cups are aligned N-S  and another three on the same surface are aligned E-W  , ( another point that you were unaware of which your anonymous sender didn’t mention is that there are more markings on the rock ,there being a totral of 17 cups ) and afurther data on the how the declination of the sun and angle of set mirrors a prominent hill as seen from the markings .the details of hundreds of similar examples are available on a public database and on request from me , as a contrast I don’t concoct whimsy about them .
As I had said I am not bothered about copyright and wasn’t really that bothered about you not asking permission on a pretty duff wee pic , but I wouldn’t like to think anyone thought that I endorsed any of your views . Interesting to see see that heraldry has been introduced , which is obviously something different  from maps and clearly related in some circumstances to some examples of rock art .
What I can provide is evidence something that you singularly were unable to do by your decision to “feel” that the markings represent something that suited your purpose ., if there is something I have said that requires evidence to support  it , ask for it .
Bad science  is  why you get criticised , and not only by me . Find some rock art ,find some connection between the motifs that is valid and you will be congratulated .

George

The main reason I was interested in the pic from p . 62 of the “Petroglyphs , the bend in the Boyne “ described as a domino motif and supposedly portraying a group of barrows is that it is a pic of a marked rock I discovered in 2005 and the pic is also my pic , albeit cropped . I don’t really mind  people using my pics , (I’m not professional and the pics are not very good ) and not being credited but one might expect being asked at least . In this case it is different , the material of the essay is so contentious and fantastical it is embarrassing to be associated with it .It is clear that author doesn’t know where the rock is situated and more importantly doesn’t realise that there are no barrows that can be seen from the rock never mind a group of five , yet this is supposedly an exemplar of that form of signification . The markings do have some genuine points of interest apart from the obvious .They are small cups which are  not common in the area but there are others quite close by and some other groups in the same county . Two slightly more contentious points but certainly provable are , a line of three of the cups are aligned due north ,which may be entirely coincidental and the site of the rock is one where a sun roll can be observed down a nearby prominent hill once again probably coincidental  but compared with the essay where the pic was taken from at least it’s true .

George

One would imagine that  anyone unleashing an essay into the public domain on the relationship between rock art motifs and landscape would have a basic awareness of the names and siting of motifs mentioned in their efforts . It would be less important  yet still remiss for an author to be unaware of the siting of a rock mentioned in their text  if the theory was concerned with something like the arrangement of motifs but when it involves  a supposed direct relationship between motifs and  the landscape, knowledge of the site and surrounding environment is critical .
Even contenious works particularly when”acadamised”  would be expected to provide accreditation and knowledge of exemplars , this is a minor point but there are other reasons for mentioning it , which may become clear later . To discuss the problems about  the rest of text  would take up too much time .

  George

Having had a quick look at one of the pdf's , it would take too long to itemise the obvious problems . One minor example as far as being problematic is concerned  was striking for a variety of other reasons . I wonder if you could clarify .
On the "Dominos " pics section could you tell where these markings are to be found ,the source of the pic ,and as it was described as being an example of a mapping of barrows where the barrows are in relation to the marked rock ?
George

Incredible find ,you immediately think of Le petit Chasseur and Sion where similar iconoclasm took place .

George

Anew, on 6 July 2011 - 19:19, said:

Same to you .

George

Apart from the words of the psalms any decoration or oranmenation does not have any meaning , it is simply decoration .
It does sound wonderful though .

  By children ,I meant simply children , look at their scribbles , like adult doodles they consist of the same motifs as found in megalithic art .

George .

There is a view that  shamen are ubiquitous in which case any historical adult depiction could potentially be a shaman.

Motifs found on rocks and other media from all periods , places and peoples have similarities and when ethnographers enquire of contemporay examples they discover many different meanings (and sometimes none) are attached to the same symbol .

I think you might like “Materials for the Study of Social Symbolism in Ancient & Tribal Art: A Record of Tradition and Continuity. “ by Carl Schuster . If you ahvn't already come across it .

“Religion (on the other hand) tends to get complicated, making the simpler solution (beyond a point) the less likely”

I agree , so why universalise and claim symbols that are common to all ,including children who have never been inebriated and are probably not shamen , have such a simple all encompassing explanation ?

“Robert Gordon Wasson, as i understand it, found a career in the pursuit of money (with J.P.Morgan!) to be less attractive than one in pursuit of spirituality through mycology .”

  Most find  hobbies to be more attractive than their work but Wasson was clearly  happy and competent in his job , he retired from banking aged 65 .

George

“A mature male, bearded & robed, sounds like the archetypical image of a shaman .”

Sounds like a typical description of a male Greek from the period ,why leap to that conclusion ?

“the carvings at Newgrange may be examples of psychedelic art in that they may have been intended to be viewed while in a non-normal state of mind which may have involved (yes) entheogens “

Three mays in that idea , it sounds like that is what you would like them to be . With no evidence for any of  the mays why not admit that there could be many other possible explanations and some with fewer conditionals .

The term entheogen is loaded in favour of  Wasson et al’s agenda ,it may be helpful in describing some uses of drugs but it is doesn’t take into consideration the most  common reasons for ingestion i.e. pleasure and escape . Humans love drugs and there is no reason that they were not in use in the Irish or British Neolithic  but there is no evidence for them whether used for pleasure or any other more esoteric reason/excuse .
George

Anew, on 4 July 2011 - 17:56, said:

Ethyl alcohol is considered an entheogen by most of  those who adopted the term , ,(btw  not a committee solely concerned with  shamanism , religious visions were also on the agenda . think Dionysus  your experience notwithstanding ).   I am perfectly aware of the source of the term and where it is applicable . I didn’t  describe the use of wine in the Judaeo /Christian tradition as being entheogenic but ceremonial but that doesn’t mean that wine is not also entheogenic . Entheogens are used within  and without organised religion .Humans and other animals like to get high regardless of  their beliefs or lack of them , there is a huge amount of what gets called entheogens consumed daily it doesn’t mean there is a religious or spiritual dimension to this .For some there might be but it is usually for kicks al a pranksters and not a repeat of the  “Good Friday experiment “ . The same might apply to the Neolithic and Bronze Age , there seems to be evidence for alcohol (I don’t drink alcohol , or hardly ever so it’s not a case of personal taste here ) but none for amanita or anything else that used to be termed psychedelic which is probably the term of choice for  those who enjoyed that experience , entheogen  is for wimps . As in most cases it is very difficult  to prove that some effect was due to some cause  The argument that because there is a lack of evidence for something means it is still a possibility isn’t too strong  ,why not admit we just don’t know , otherwise you can suggest  anything that may reflect your prejudices i.e. you can’t prove  aliens ,alcohol , snake worship , over eating , cannibalism , etc were not the cause but if you propose they were then some evidence might be expected .

George

Anew, on 4 July 2011 - 01:05, said:

  Alcohol is an entheogen but it's ceremonial use by the judeo/christian religions is not one of inebriation ,and that is the case in the majority of religions regardless of the entheogen . We know very little about Neolithic -Bronze Age religions/cosmologies and what you believe , as in the above , is not based on evidence particularly for Newgrange which was the initial specified site .

George

Bucky ,  it seems to me that when confronted with examples of excellence one reaction is to invoke outside influences , aliens , drugs ,deals with the devil , magical practices etc , not that any of these ,  with the exception of aliens  , will necessarily help or impede but they do not explain the pyramids , Beethoven , Shakespeare , rock art or Janelle Monae . It is demeaning  ,as if those responsible for the achievements could not possibly manage to do so without some external assistance , it’s also lazy ,a  universalising  “well that explains that away then “attitude .
There are some religions /cosmologies where inebriation plays an important part but for the majority it doesn’t and in the cases of the creators and followers   of  “new” religions/cosmologies which have been recorded from the start  , e.g.   Joseph Smith , L.Ron Hubbard , Shree Rajnish  there is little to suggest a connection .
From Mikes  original post “ In some Welsh and Irish tombs, there are engraved patterns and these match geometric shapes that are often seen in trance …” these same motifs ,basically spirals chevrons , lozenges ,zig zags etc are seen by us all , children are forever drawing them ,and adults are forever doodling them , as “trance”  covers such a wide spectrum possibly the children and doodlers are also entranced .
Also from the initial post “Engraved on the wall were three joined spirals and these flare brightly under the glare of the sun Again, this matches trance visions of spirals and tunnels as providing access to alternative realms. “As  the three joined spirals don’t face the sun (they are also towards the end of the passage ,they never flare under the glare of the sun , any light on them is reflected . The following  phrase is pure imagination .
We don’t know the drugs of choice in the British Neolithic , the oft mentioned henbane from pottery at Balfarg is no longer accepted  and certainly have no way of knowing of physical or mental practices that may have led to any type of trance state . Could any of us recognise trance in the art of a contemporary ,what hope is there for recognising it from the Neolithic ?

Another from the original post “Some tombs were laid out to amplify the sound of a drum and achieve the exact frequency required to facilitate trance” . Percussion is a likely form of instrumentation in the period but there is no evidence of the use of any musical instruments at Newgrange .
It is not clear whether the suggestion is for the forecourt , passage or chambers being “laid out “ regardless no details are given . There have been two tests of the acoustic properties of Newgrange to my knowledge  (1996 &2001) neither of which suggested the building was “laid out to amplify the sound of a drum ‘ drums were used and it was noted that  they were very loud inside the monument but hardly audible outside which is hardly the same not that surprising and doesn’t prove drums were ever used there .
All sounds and frequencies have an effect on the listener and depending on the equipment used , resonances can be found at various frequencies which can then be believed to effect various part of the body or induce brain rhythms associated  with various  “trances  “ throughout the spectrum from waking consciousness through meditation ,hypnogogia and “peak experiences “ .In effect these same frequencies and subsequent effects can be found  ,if you use the right equipment and look hard enough  , in most enclosed spaces including your house , the local jail , hospital and probably the space station .

Coves also at Arbor Low ,Cairnpapple ,Beckhampton (where Steve Marshall is doing as you suggest ) ,Stenness , Croft Moraig & Arminghall .

Trance states , drumming , shamanism  , acoustic considerations in the architecture  ,no evidence for any these and nothing to associate  the rock art with any of them either .

George

Bucky , I am not at all sympathetic towards  the suggestions Mike’s  post ,hence my final comment “see above” , but I did remember the phrase  “At a very small number of tombs, the route that the dead spirit followed may have been guided by the rising sun, shining down the entrance passageway and illuminating the chamber itself “ which does limit the choices  although I don’t believe he was necessarily including WKLB .
I was thinking of Hoskins when I said  “are aligned on the  part of the sky where the sun sets or rises and the odd few have obvious orientations on solstices as in the case of the Newgrange “(typos amended ) I did not mention  or imply anything specific  so your paragraph is no different from what I was suggesting  .Imposing the Thom paradigm on passage graves , which are excellent examples of intentional orientation  , shows that it hardly applies to them at all and if there is anything to add to their astro understanding it will come  “browner “  approach .

My comment  "We don't know what the entrance to Newgrange was like at all , have you seen the pre-excavation pics ?" Was a flippant response to the original “It is likely that entire corpses were placed in the entrance passageways to the tombs or even left in the forecourt, where they would putrefy and rot.” . No , not likely , that was just suggestion with no evidence for support like nearly all the comments . There were some other confused comments about the acoustics of the forecourt/tomb (it’s not clear which was being suggested ) providing the “exact frequency required to facilitate trance “ . No figures are mentioned or what type of trance . There are conflicting studies giving different frequencies but all resonators will have more than one frequency and you can always find a suitable effect for that frequency . Yes “moonshine “ as  you say . The forecourt is a feature of  the architecture of many different types of barrow/tomb  e.g.  Court tombs , Cotswold Severn tombs , earthen and megalithic long barrows ,Clyde/Carlingford tombs etc . The presence of rock art is the most likely explanation for the suggestion that trance may be involved in ceremonies or even the inspiration for the rock art . The trance suggestion is colourful    
but there is no evidence , it’s the presence of the rock art that prompted it and there is nothing to suggest a connection between the two whether induced by the “exact frequencies “  booze , sleep deprivation or other  it’s as if the engravers were incapable of coming up with a relatively limited  variety of motifs in the case of Atlantic rock  art or the sophistication of the “ice age art “ without them .

George

To be fair to the origianl poster hewas talking about a limited number of megalithic tombs .In the case of Newgrange the monument , that he was considering  ,and WKLB ,wayland's Smithy  I'm sure the forecourt was part of the original architecture and not a later addition .True the passages of passage graves etc are oriented all over the place but the vast majority are aligned on the the part of the sky where the sun sets or rises and the odd few ahve obvious orienations on solstices as in the case of the Newgrange .The passage itself ,like an avenue , is usually considered as being sufficiently intentional, i.e. a lot more than just two stones 20 metres apart theres a whole row of them  . What is lacking is any evidence of shamen being involved in  the building ,art ,astronomy or any ceremonies that may have taken place at the monument .See above .
  George

Anew, on 4 February 2011 - 11:28, said:

There are about a dozen examples of lines of Lozenges from the Bru , both vertical and horizontal ,heres some . Dowth south C6 ,Knowth 4 orthostat A , 2 corbels and a roofstone from Newgrange , Newgrange kerbstones K4 & k67 ,Knowth 2 orthostat 29 ,Knowth east orthostat 36 . As well as fourknocks there ae others outwith the Bru e.g. Loughcrew F .R2 .

george

I have repeated what I said on the original posts too. No answer on the one possible point that might give some salience to the orientation .Is the capstone aligned on the solstice ? The other possibly positive component ,the standing stone we have ,as yet no evidence for . Gates ,"historical paths " and churches  may convince thousands as would the suggested Boswens croft standing stone equinox "alignment "  but not archaeoastronomers .

davidjones, on 27 January 2011 - 14:56, said:

Is the cap stone oriented towards the solstice ? Apart from the unobserved /undated stone ,the non contemporaneous  gates ,paths and churches will not convince archaeoastronomers of intention on behalf of the builders of the quoit .
  I don't know what a random burial may be , but I expect that the Chun Quoit isn't one .

davidjones, on 10 January 2011 - 18:35, said:

David , what about the Boswens croft standing stone ? it provides the same photo opportunity  ,prehistoric site to local natural feature with sun as a back drop on an astronomically  auspicious day of the year . Neither would be accepted by most archaeoastronomers because of the lack of intentionality . This criteria is usually  provided by a non- natural backsight or foresight e.g.  a standing stone like an outlier to a stone which gives the all important indication of line of sight from or to the primary monument .If the cap stone of the quoit had been aligned on the axis of the suggested alignment it may have provided some form of indication but it wasn’t . The sun has to set and rise at six points on the horizon on astronomically auspicious days  as seen from any monument , often these events coincide with points of the horizon that may  appear salient to an observer but without indication they are merely fortuitous .

George

Anew, on 8 January 2011 - 03:59, said:

Anew ,  The Altai "Princess " burial was dated to 2500BC , the earliest Class 1 Pictish stones i.e. those that bore the mirror symbol date from a millenium later , 6 th C. AD .

George

I like the question mark .Looking forward to the drawings .It will be a first if it is as promised .My guess is that it is more likely a case of apophenia .Some problems that come to mind  from the limited amount of info .  Orion has 7 stars Cassio 5 Sirius and the pole star gives a total of 14 from 70  .Do the remainder fit ? If Sirius is there where is Aldebaran , the belt points to both , Procion and Rigel are also prominent  around Orion , are they also missing ? At the time of build of Portal tombs the pole star was Thuban which was quite faint , would it really have been viewed as important enough to mark and is there a relationship between magnitude and size of cup (Frankie Howard )?
George

Hello , apart from the Odin stone other ones that come to mind are  Ballymeanoch , Hacketstown Carlow .Moytirra east Sligo .Doagh Co. Antrim .Devils Ring and Finger Staffordshire . Craw stone  Wigtown and  Ringing stone Avebury. Also worth mentioning a stone from the cist at Balblair .I believe all those were man made andall accessible except the Balblair which I think is in a shed somewhere in Invernesshire if it's not in the museum in Inverness .
George

davidjones, on 17 January 2010 - 22:17, said:

   Hello David , just noticed this and apologies for another negative post  .
The problem I see with the pic as evidence for an alignment is there are only two components ,one natural and one man made if there were a third man made component it would have a lot more salience  or if the angle of the capstone was oriented in the direction of Carn Kenidjack .Another problem is that the Carn is not  particularly prominent in the view from the Quoit ,  it might even be lower in altitude . A similar local example might be the Boswens Common standing stone which would provide a view of the setting equinox  sun (cloud permitting ) over the Carn but I wouldn't suggest it as being meaningful for the same reasons as above .

George

Anew, on 8 October 2010 - 12:44, said:

It will set over the recumbent as seen from the centre at the standstill .The "best" date for the standstill in 206 would ahve seen it skim along the recumbent .
Aikey Bare also has a "lump" on it's recumbent . Berrybrae is one of the few recumbents that are not aligned on the major standstill but it is very close to the minor standstill .

p.s. Yep .

George

Anew, on 7 October 2010 - 07:53, said:

Other RSC 's with ring cairns include Berrybrae ,Tomnaverie ,Garrol Wood ,Esslie greater and lesser and Raes of Clune .Dyce/Tyrebagger is a wee bit off for the standstill (by 2.6 degrees of declination ) or not as close as others .The centre of the circle is difficult enough to find and given the short distance to a relatively narrow marker like a flanker leaves a lot of leeway in choosing an azimuth so any centre of circle line line over an orthostat is likely to be contentious ,because the recumbent is so long ,it , arguably ,  makes for a more likely orientation .
George

Dunno if this helps but at Honolulu on Dec 21 1974 a quarter moon set due west just after 1 am ,
the declination was just over 2 degrees .

George