"These include a number of healed Head injuries apparently inflicted with blunt, club-like implements ..."

One might consider the possibility there was a stick-fighting tradition in Europe at the time, similar to that which exists in traditional/tribal Africa . This may explain some of the injuries of this type . At the same time, though, this tradition as it exists today is intended to provide contest below the level of war, so blows which seem intended to kill would probably have been due to battle .

"There are accounts dating back to the 1850's where people used to wash their cattle once a year in the bog..." (from the previous post)

The legend of Achilles may fall into this context . Dipped as a baby in the mythical river Styx, he was said to be invulnerable to attack in all places exept for his heel, (where his mother had held him).

Other flattened circles i have found plans for are as follows, (from Prof. Thom's book Megalithic Sites in Britain) :

Rough Tor
Dinnever Hill
Burnmoor E
Cambret Moor
Black Marsh
Bar Brook
Thieves, (henge)
Aviemore
Tursachan Callanish, (a complicated site)

With the (slightly) possible exception of the last, none of these appear to have rectangular settings of stones either within them or immediately nearby . Thus if that of Castlerigg represented an inverted entry ramp, and if the other rings continued to represent ceremonial huts, this aspect must have been dropped or shifted to a less fixed medium early on . This complicates, but does not rule out, its reappearance as the extra stone in the Barra grave .

It is also noteworthy that the North Uist site Leacach an Tigh Chloiche contains more in the way of rectangular boxes of stones, (4 or 5 by my count), than clear evidence of a ring . This raises the possibility that the rectangular stone setting was either a Hebridean innovation, or one which took root there . The former seems somewhat unlikely, but cannot be ruled out if the time held a sufficiently competent seafaring culture, and if so, their meaning is the more obscure . In any case, the way it is used at the Uist site indicates it could at the least be separated from any interpretation as an inverted entry ramp to a ring as symbolic hut .

Another aspect that i assume the common buzzard shares with hawks, eagles and the like is the habit of circling while on patrol . I feel this would have elevated these birds in the opinion of the ring-oriented culture of the Isles . And that such may be attested to by the Wandsworth Shield, which draws the ends of the bird-of-prey-and/or-carrion's wings into circles, possibly indicative of a regard for their (circling) modus ; (i note that this would be an Iron Age find, and thus substantially later, but think the Neotlithic/Bronze-Age belief system still had an influence upon traditions at the time) .

Also, as mentioned in other threads, i believe that when the sunlight shone down on gliding birds of this type, the image of a bucranium would appear as the aft part of the wings became translucent while the fore-part and body remained opaque . Though this would be most elegant with the lightly-muscled vulture, the more powerful (for its size) buzzard should offer a similar, though more stoutly horned, image . I feel that this too would have made an impression on the people of the time .

Thirdly, as can be seen in this photo, the underside of the buzzard's tail can display lines of dots which i feel might be connected to the fan-shaped array, "Hill o'Many Stanes", in Scotland .

Other birds, (besides vultures, ravens and/or carrion crows), have been suggested, and i think the choice of preffered agent was likely to have been regional one and at times a way of expressing tribal identity . Where spiral carvings and the common buzzard were both present, i feel it was their most likely choice . But an interesting counterpoint is provided by the backstory of Mên Scryfa in Cornwall . At least at the time the stone was erected, the locals held the raven in high regard . Ravens & crows being much different than the Buzzard, (among other things, they fly in iconically straight lines, and are more flock-oriented), their veneration may indicate either changing times or a distinctly different local culture, (if excarnation was practiced in Iron-Age Cornwall, or if the tradition reached back into the Bronze Age / Neolithic) .

I believe this was broadly practiced in pre-history, and have brought the subject up on the following threads :

Allasdale Dunes

Towie Petrosphere

The WandsWorth Shield

Lozenges & Cupmarks

I am informed by member RuneMage of megalithic.co.uk that vultures do not frequent the British Isles .

I now consider the Common Buzzard to be the most likely agent of this practice there, particularly for the male's spiraling pre-spring mating display, which i feel may be linked to the spiral symbol used in the Isles.

Now that i am aware of a hut quite close to the Urkultur which's floor-plan resembles the rings mentioned above and the grave, its connection to the immediately-just risen sun seems less probable than to a symbolic dwelling, (perhaps) for some rite of passage into the afterlife . With this, comes a de-emphasis, (though not necessarily dismissal), of the possible role of excarnation here, and i think a separate thread on the subject would be better.

One way to discourage spamming might be to hold back a new member's first three posts pending review by moderators .

This may be of distant relevance here :

http://www.stonepage...skin-maen-llia/

As is visible in satellite photographs, the valley high within which this stone stands has faint ground-lines which may or may not be as ancient as the stone, (i don't know) .
They bear some resemblance to the pattern on the hide in the linked post . If this was intentional, it may be that the animal made enough of an impression on people that they considered its pattern a symbol which they brought with them to a land far outside its range ~ to a time when sight of the actual animal was, (i would think), generations removed from the living memory of those who set up the stone and marked the land .

Having searched flickr for more photos to establish a basis for comparison, i find a variety of styles of which the one in the linked photo from the previous post is a stand-out, (though maybe not singular), example . I find myself curious about two things :

First is the off-round shape painted in white, (a color of apparent symbolic importance in much of traditional Africa), on the hut's wall . It seems to be both the shape of the hut and a fairly good representation of the overall shape of the Barra grave, Castlerigg, and Long Meg's Daughters . Its presence seems to add symbolic meaning, (and this is the only hut i've seen it on) . Together these indicate that this particular style of hut may have a special purpose within their culture . One woman, (with a rather guarded expression), stands in the doorway, and another is visible within in the enlarged version . Their presence indicates that this was not a male-only domain ; and i imagine it might have involved pregnancy, childbirth or a rite of passage .

Secondly, there is a ramp of earth leading to the door-opening, which appears to be at a slight angle to it, recalling but inverting the enclosure within Castlerigg and the extra stone in the Barra grave .

I suggest that these British sites may draw upon a similar tradition intended to bring a similar, (but some sense inverted), magic to the dead .




Please see also the other photo of Himba dwellings from the Wikipedia page : http://en.wikipedia....mba_village.jpg

Here is an example of an African hut with a shape similar to Castlerigg and the Barra grave :

http://en.wikipedia....Himba_0712a.jpg

Here's something interesting.

The skin must be from a local (Sudanese) animal, but the pattern reminds me somewhat of the scarified landscape around Maen Llia in Wales, (which can be seen in a satellite photo).

Imagining a connection doesn't make one historically real ; but as this is a seer using the skin, his selection would (i imagine) have been a careful one . If the presence of these lines implies to him a magic, and if the tradition is old enough, it is possible (to my mind) that it was carried outward from Africa in the human diaspora and saw modified application in Wales .

Replying to myself in post 4 of this topic,

Quote

But this set has not: . Its opening photos show what i was talking about .

Here's another :

http://www.flickr.co...157608644175542

Also of interest :

http://www.flickr.co...157608644175542

Here's a photo of a woman with a now-rare trapezoidal lip plate :

http://www.flickr.co...157608644175542

I wonder if its symbolism might be linked to Hill o'Many Stanes in Scotland :

http://www.stonepage...manystanes.html

To explain my thinking in the context of the previous post,

What i think these photos offer, (beyond a look at a fascinating culture little changed by modernization), is a view of preserved elements of a symbolic lexicon which reaches back to ancient times . I believe this is important to understanding the British Neolithic & Bronze Ages because i see enough parallels between them and African traditional culture that i believe Britons were expressing a symbolic lexicon which was developed outside their Isles ... most likely in Africa and quite possibly by the original human culture, which i call the 'Urkultur' . I believe that a symbology would have accompanied the original human language, and traveled with the diaspora* into Eurasia and beyond . From it, different groups would inevitably have selected different, (but sometimes overlapping), sets of elements to express and to hold as important ~ these becoming part of their identity .

*It is worth noting in this context that the diaspora was a sequence of waves complicated by the Ice Ages' periodic compression of the Eurasian population into Iberia(?), southern Russia, the Trans-Caucasus area, Middle East, et cetera ~ providing opportunity for symbolism carried by different groups to remix . There is the possibility that people at times migrated back into Africa ; but i think it's clear that the overall movement was outward from the continent . There is also the very (very) remote possibility that people were traveling back and forth between the Neolithic and Bronze Age British Isles and the Omo Valley, but such direct contact is not necessary to explain the similarities, and not what i mean to suggest .

Though people might have added symbols along the way, and these might coincidentally resemble eachother, i feel the stronger explanation assumes that tribes largely conserved their chosen parts of the inheritance into the Iron Age . In particular, think the lexicon's emphasized and widely distributed elements are those least likely to have been improvised coincidentally by different groups in scattered places . Thus i take the appearance on these plates of U-shapes, (present in the Irish, British and Pazyryk archaeological record), paired rings, (present in the British archaeological record), and disks with center-holes, (those of Britain and China), as indication of probable common origin ... though because of the greater distance involved, i must allow that the probability Chinese holed disks were a local improvisation would be increased .

This is in part because i believe early societies were relatively level, (sociologically), meritocratic, and very interested in the continuity of the group and its traditions . I believe they saw their inherited symbology as part of that continuity . This is also in part because i feel that the primary drivers for the change of a such a lexicon would be changing technologies and ways of life ~ and that there would be a lag time involved, particularly if these changes were perceived as being good by the people, or if they empowered the religious leaders . I feel that the millennia preceding the transition to (in many places transient) agriculture and pastoralism was accompanied by little change in symbolism, (because it was accompanied by little change in way of life) ; and that the transition itself, since it came in the context of a rising standard of living, but not yet to severe expression of the ills of despoiled lands and internally divided societies, would have been seen as an affirmation of the value of the old symbology ... which would have been expressed within and upon monuments, artifacts, et cetera . For a time .

In this context please note the earring on the Surma woman pictured in the link below :

http://www.flickr.co...157608644175542

It has the same shape as the shield, and comes from the same area, (the Omo valley in Ethiopia) .

My imagination tells me that this earring is intended as a charm to prevent evil spirits from whispering in her ear . If so, it would seem to add to the magical properties believed of this shield-form .

The Mursi culture of southern Ethiopia has a (world famous) tradition of piercing women's lower lips to insert a plate which they feel makes her more beautiful . Often these plates are plain disks , but where they are embellished the patterns are themselves interesting, look ancient and can suggest elements of the British Isles' archaeological milieu . Some links :

http://www.flickr.co...157608644175542 ; This one shows twin rings with a joining cairn-like buckle and what may be symbols for the sun and moon.

http://www.flickr.co...157608644175542 ; Another look at the above.

http://www.flickr.co...157608644175542 ; A very similar lip plate.

http://www.flickr.co...157608644175542 ; A radial pattern involving a small central ring and U shapes.

http://www.flickr.co...157608644175542 ; A small ring surrounded by double-rings and U shapes in a five-fold symmetry.

http://www.flickr.co...157608644175542 ; A holed plate on a beautiful young woman.

Note also her earring's resemblance to their traditional shield, (http://www.flickr.co.../in/photostream), and/or British bell barrows.

http://www.flickr.co...157608644175542 ; A holed plate with U shapes in a six-fold symmetry.

http://www.flickr.co...157608644175542 ; A mixture of designs including U shapes and dots.

http://www.flickr.co...157608644175542 ; Another look at same.

http://www.flickr.co...157608644175542 ; One covered with dots.

It is striking how much the African tribes use dots . These could be fore-runners of cupmarks

http://www.flickr.co...157608644175542 ; A girl of the Surma tribe with an earring showing concentric circles.

Diego & Paola,



One of the things that distinguishes a labor of love is how much the malevolent love to destroy it . Because they know it hurts . It's a cruel sport . They want to see who can make you cry . They want to see who can shut you down.


That aside, the bigger problem you're facing is lack of input . It is not that you couldn't set up groups on a photo-sharing or social-networking site where security would be their concern…   But how much more defeated would you feel if you abandoned this forum to do so and saw little activity there?   Really, nothing hurts more than 0 views, no feedback . Here you have a reservoir of posts which will draw web-searches regarding a variety of sites and connected subjects . People do come to your forums, the trick is getting the interested to participate.


I suggest that you foster creative thinking to rebuild activity . Participate in discussions when and if you have the time . Read the posts likewise . Remember that we are considering a past which cannot be completely reconstructed, only inferred from archaeological/genetic/linguistic/cultural evidence, and from our understanding of what it is/was to be human . But at the same time, please consider it is no offense for members to try to reconstruct that past in the mind's eye on your forums . Please don't be impressed by skeptics who enter hurling i-doubt-it(s) before falling permanently dormant only to be replaced by new skeptics with a strikingly similar tone . And please don't let them run over ideas or members if you think there might be something/someone there worth developing . Ideas can evolve and improve, just as can people . In that process, a level of adversity is sometimes helpful, even fun, depending on the characters of those engaged . Use your judgement, remembering that the site will reflect it, and that proper behavior is not one-size-fits-all . If a few are having fun at fighting, let them fight ; but if someone's idea of fun is provocation or bullying, encourage them to stop . Be aware that interpersonal disputes tend to go back several posts ~ someone took a pre-emptive tone, made a slanted remark or a joke that didn't go over, someone feels accused et cetera and then they gain momentum ~ so that it may not be what's happening when you become aware of things that's key . To untangle them, a considered opinion which takes both points of view into account (without necessarily splitting the difference) may be more effective than a scolding ; but if that doesn't work, don't be afraid to suspend a member and to do so without getting upset yourself.


Try to relax and have a bit of fun at it . Here we are : ice-caps are melting, oceans are becoming acidic, elections here&about are being soaked in money then counted in the dark by private interests, Pakistan has too many bombs and Iran doesn't have any (yet), the Israelis and the Palestinians both want their same land under a hot sun, people in Russia are certain Putin was (somewhere) behind a wave of bombings and assassinations (including at least one radio-poisoned defector) but many still voted for him because they like their Czars terrible, my country imports concentrated drugs at a mad pace and exports weapons similarly with a stable of billionaires and a sky-high incarceration rate, the Chinese are working to dissolve an ancient culture in Tibet and polluting with abandon, African tribes from whom we might learn a great deal about pre-diaspora cultures are being proselytized by competing global religions and in some cases driven from their land (including by lethal means) by governments intent on renting it to multinationals to grow food for export, millenarian religious fanatics may try to have WWIII after all, the logical end-state of übercapitalism would seem to be that one enterprise gains effective control over all the wealth/resources/governments on the planet and one person gains control over it and the principal barriers to this would seem to be technological and might be overcome within three generations …… and …… people not only find the time to study the prehistoric past but become passionate about it . It is vaguely ludicrous. More than once it's reminded me of an episode of Star Trek in which a planet's sun was about to blow up and people were fleeing into its past . Spock wound up in a cave in an Ice Age with a beautiful woman, (and McCoy), while Kirk was going to be burned as a warlock . Each of us imagines our pasts differently ~ that there's a part of us that would like to go back is part of the reason we argue over it, but part also of the reason people seek out these sites.


More concretely, (though i doubt my long-term participation as my prospects aren't good), i suggest that you increase the default post visibility for the Alternative Theories forum to match that of the Megalithic forum . By now it should be clear that at least some of those who (may have) argued to you you should be (perhaps) embarrassed by it or the subject matter, (read drug use), i brought up had little continuing interest, and less to offer . I also suggest that you allow non-members to view/download the images members include in posts . Making the forums welcoming to the interested stranger by not hiding graphic content will, i think, bring in more quality people than requiring them to join before they can view . A designated Photos of the Stones forum with a higher, (say 4MB), ceiling on graphic uploads per post may also be a good idea . If a member goes to (say) Castlerigg and wants to post their photos to a like-named thread in such a forum, it will boost activity, particularly if they can share them with their non-member friends ~ who may feel encouraged to join . If you simply don't have the time, i recommend locking the forum rather than pulling it down . That way you'll have something to come back to when and if things change for the better .  And who knows, some ideas first posted to your site may come to be accepted theory and then you'll be able to say, "Right here, right here."



Anew, (King of Triangles)

I like this site, for what it's worth.   Good to see you back.

I recently noticed that some Tibetan symbols bear a similarity to those used in the broader milieu.

A list of their symbols can be found at :  Tibetan Unicode

Of particular interest would be :

the svasti signs, 0FD5-0FD8 ;

the Yin-Yang-like symbols, 0FC9-0FCC ; I believe i've seen something similar to 0FCC in the Swastika Stone of Ilkley Moor

an X with dots, 0FBF ;

three small circles in an equilateral triangular arrangement, 0F1C ; I've seen many similar arrangements of dots on an ancient carved stone bull ; The Tamil symbology also contains such a sign.

a circle with four dots around it, 0F13 ;

a pair of circles above and below a line, 0F14 ;

cantillation signs, 0FC0-0FC3 ; 0FC3 makes me wonder if some of the european carvings of tailed cups within rings could have had percussive symbology.

The linked chart explains also provides some information on their Tibetan meanings.

Kevin, good to hear from you.

This photo, (by Eric Lafforgue), shows a line of standing stones erected within an enclosure by the Konso tribe of Ethiopia .

As before, it is my belief that there is a good chance European Stone Age traditions had roots in an African Urkultur ; thus the study of traditional African practices may shed light on this milieu .

This photo, (by Eric Lafforgue), shows a man of the Bodi tribe of Ethiopia preparing to defend his ancestral land with traditional weapons ... against modern incursion backed by the government .

He carries a stick and a shield . The shield resembles the plan of a Bell Barrow, and it is noted in the (Wikipedia) page that daggers are a common find in these ~ possibly indicating that this was a traditional burial form for a brave warrior . I note in particular the roundish exposed spot of the lashing which holds the shield to the handle, (facing the viewer), for its similarity to an entrance .

As before, it is my belief that there is a good chance European Stone Age traditions had roots in an African Urkultur ; thus the study of traditional African practices may shed light on this milieu .

Here's something interesting ~ this stone, which looks like an axe ~ has a traditional African use in connection with the horns of the tribe's cattle .

If as i believe, the traditions of Stone Age Europe have roots in an African Urkultur, it may be worth considering whether some of the many "stone axes" which have been found in Europe were used within a similar tradition .

I was walking recently when i saw the sun setting behind a low hill . Its shape was near-oval, and it occurred to me that this may have been an influence upon the builders of rings ... if they were seeking to reinforce a connection with risings and or settings .

Some photos from Flickr follow : photo 1 ; photo 2 ; photo 3

I am particularly interested in the last one because the axis of symmetry seems to be a little bit higher than center, just as the sun emerges ... making the sun look slightly egg-shaped with the broader end up . I suggest this may have influenced the development of Long Meg and/or some of the other (roughly) egg-shaped rings . The atmospheric distortion evident may also have influenced the somewhat irregular placement of stones upon the outline .

I have also posted a number of mathematical conjectures regarding these in this forum . I do not see these as mutually exclusive, as i believe they may have wished to imbue their rings with both magics .