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[Anew]

This thread grows from the item 5,000 year-old circular site discovered in Northern Ireland in the Archaeo News forum of this site


A quick google search for [inverted urn] turned up several links . First and interestingly : the practice was also (at some point) going on in the -couldn't-be-more-distant- Peru/Ecuador area . Disclaiming connection, and allowing for variability in local custom and practice, it seems to imply like symbolism took shape in separate cultures ; a symbolism perhaps involving belief in the magic of reflection in water, of the rising/setting sun, and imaginably, in an 'upside-down realm' of spiritual importance -- perhaps as a home for the dead (or some of the dead), and/or to the yet-to-be-born


In the British Isles, the practice of inverting urns to accompany cremation burials and/or cist burials (?) is mentioned in two North Yorkshire sites on this page: References to Rock art on the North Yorks Moors as follows:

Quote

Boulby,  Easington. (NZ 7564 1895)  12m Dia. Excavated 1913/14.
This kerbed barrow covered a cremation burial in an inverted collared urn which was surrounded by a ring of small greenstones at the mound centre. Two cup marked stones were found in the mound material.

Quote

Peak, Staintondale, (NZ 9807 0147)  3.6m (dug in 1852).
This kerbed barrow covered two cists paved with pebbles. An inverted urn was found alongside one of the cists at the mound centre. This cist had a side slab carved with 3 concentric rings and a star in the centre.

  "hereabouts Mr. Marshall also found another stone marked with a circle, crossed by a horizontal and perpendicular line. And subsequent to 1852, the same gentleman found in that vicinity another particular stone, marked with 4 of the same kind of hieroglyhics, differing only as follows; viz., one  consisting of four concentric circles with a dot in the centre - one of  three circles and dot in the centre - one with two circles and dot in the middle ,and one of only one circle and centre dot."

air photo shows a 19m circle at9805 0147 + smaller one at 9807 0147

Notes
knox p183 a little distance southwards from raven hall in the vicinity of Burnt Howe (about two furlongs) was a circular mound/banking 195ft in circumference and 7ft wide and 6in high. 14 ft to east was small tumulus this in 30 acre enclosure where the base of 32 barrows were uncovered when the land was ploughed many had large stones in the centre or around the edge  from 6-11ft long which could have stood upright as shown by the weathered upper parts.

p197  4 yds 3.6m dia within its circle of low kerbstones contained a stone lined grave plus in the centre of the mound was an inverted urn over a cist. Pebbles paved the grave and cist (water worn ? symbol of ?)

on a side slab of this kist was carved 3 concentric circles with a star in the centre.

p201 mr marshall also found buried near the circle/bank, a large block of blue granite (perhaps whinstone or sea shore boulder) having a surface area of about a yard, with a saucer like cavity cut in it (not worn) six inches wide.

To me, three things may be inferred at this point, (rightly or wrongly) :

1) The burial accompanied by an inverted urn was a known but not universal practice in what is now northern England and Northern Ireland, which may have been performed under specific conditions / for specific reasons

2) The probable route of connection/association between these sites, (if they are connected), passes through northern England

3) Seahenge, with its massive inverted oak at center, is (for the finds) more solidly considerable as an expression of these beliefs, (however they were held)

[Anew]

...highlighting from the above quote, (source: References to Rock art on the North Yorks Moors)

Quote

p201 mr marshall also found buried near the circle/bank, a large block of blue granite (perhaps whinstone or sea shore boulder) having a surface area of about a yard, with a saucer like cavity cut in it (not worn) six inches wide.

If Mr. Marshall and I are believed reasonable, a stone basin was turned up in this same funerary context in Yorkshire

The most famous examples of (funerary context) stone basins from the Isles i'm aware of come from Newgrange and Knowth in Ireland . These are (i think) close enough to the Ballygawley site in miles and (at least for Newgrange) in time, for them to have existed within the same subculture . The presence of an inverted urn at Ballygawley, and of more of these at sites in Yorkshire where a basin, (small by Irish standards), also turns up, continues to raise the possibility that parallel or interlinked traditions, (involving cremation, and basins or inverted urns), possibly parts of a complete subculture, passed or extended from northeast Ireland across northern England ; maybe as far in space and time as Seahenge . (Edit: This is an underestimate of the range of the inverted-urn tradition)

Back in Yorkshire, another report of an inverted urn (with cremation), (inserted into a barrow near Scarborough), comes from an 1837 edition of The Gentleman's magazine ; (courtesy Google books)

Edited by Anew, 9 August 2009 - 05:36.

[Anew]

Anew, on 9 August 2009 - 04:48, said:

(Edit: This is an underestimate of the range of the inverted-urn tradition)

Searching for [cremation "inverted urn" "County Meath"] has has turned up several snippets and locations over a surprisingly broad range.

The Journal of Social Archaeology seems to link an inverted urn burial to the Hill of Tara in County Meath ; but the article is for subscribers and (unsuch) i cannot be sure.

The book Ancient Ireland (Laurence Flanagan), (page 115), mentions the following:

Quote

At Moanmore, County Tipperary, two adults were together under an inverted urn, with a vase

One has turned up on the west coast of the Isle of Lewis, (link), with mention of the practice on the Scottish mainland as well:

Quote

THE CREMATION URN IN THE CORBELLED CIST

The D-shaped cairn covering the single inhumation in a short cist was succeeded by a cremation
burial in an inverted urn contained in a small corbelled construction. While this sequence is
familiar from mainland cairns both the urn and the cist construction present unusual details. How
typical these are of the island tradition is unclear since no other cremation burial in an urn has yet
been excavated in the Outer Isles.

Cinerary urns in Scotland are usually buried in a simple hole in the ground, sometimes with a stone
slab under them and occasionally a stone over as well. Rarely the inverted urn is enclosed in a crude cist
made from a basal slab with a few irregular slabs set round it vertically, and a top slab. Examples include an
encrusted urn burial at Aberlemno, Angus (Childe 1943), and an enlarged food vessel urn at Dunfermline,
Fife (Close-Brooks et al 1972,124-5, with further references).

Source:

Procedures of the Society of Antiquaries of Scotland, 125 (1995), 253-277, fiche 1: F11-G14
Excavation of a cairn at Cnip, Uig, Isle of Lewis
Joanna Close-Brooks*
with contributions by Rosemary Bradley, G Whittington,
Mary Harman, R Hetherington, B Denston & Dorothy Lunt

please see diagram on page 261

The 1870 book Grave Mounds and their Contents, (Llewellynn Jewitt), appears to show:

An inverted urn from a mound on Lord's Down in Dorset, (in layer 2 of figure 2 on page 7) .
A generic tumulus with an inverted urn, (treating it in the text as a common occurrence), (figure 5 on page 10) .
An inverted-urn cremation from the area of Wardlow in Derbyshire, (page 34) .
An inverted-urn find from Cambridgeshire, and an inverted-urn-as-lid find from Lincolnshire, (page 35).

So in sum: It seems the tradition was widespread within the Isles, but not universally followed ; suggesting certain (unknown) context or contexts . It may be, to some extent, connected with the basin tradition, as they have been found together in one location, and both of them involve cremation . And it may offer a clue to the meaning of Seahenge on the Norfolk coast

[tiompan]

Anew , inverted urns are not an uncommon Bronze Age funerary practice .Often found in "cemeteries" here's  one in situ http://www.themodern...of_crichie.html .Considering the time difference (1000 years )and burial context there is little connection between them and and Bru type basins .

George

[kevin.b]

At the risk of talking to myself, again.
Everything spirals clockwise or counter clockwise, one upward from the surface , the other downwards into the earth.
But these directions turn around on a cyclic basis, mostly at the moons direction.
If instead of viewing the physical, you consider as well the non physical, and further consider that it may have been the non physical lets say soul of the deceased that was prime concern of those incarnating their remains, then  the normal spiral direction at each point where the remains are found should be checked.
Of course nobody ever does , or considers any such thing relevent, so I will continue to waffle to myself, hopefully My waffling may one day catch the attention of one not totally locked into the physical mindset so firmly.
To them a rock is a rock, to me the rock influences direction , so a specific stone placed precisely may be to resist an upward flow , perhaps they didn't desire the deceased to return locally?
Or they alternately desired to assist the deceased as much as possible to return locally?
The trees turn around the field circulation direction aprox on the 20th of march locally here, so it will depend when a tree is cut and felled , which way it influences the field pattern about it, of course to the vast majority a tree trunk is a tree trunk, but not to odd balls like myself, talking to myself as usual.
Kevin

[Anew]

tiompan, on 9 August 2009 - 09:23, said:

Anew , inverted urns are not an uncommon Bronze Age funerary practice .Often found in "cemeteries" here's  one in situ http://www.themodern...of_crichie.html .Considering the time difference (1000 years )and burial context there is little connection between them and and Bru type basins .

George

George, thanks for responding . I went off half-cocked, as a buff may . The idea of an inverted urn was completely novel to me so i pursued it (publicly) where i would and there may not be much here that a knowledgeable person isn't aware of . I scanned the TMA page and repeat this acrobat link from it, (courtesy Rhiannon, pages 161-5 being most interesting) . It's interesting that they note a "small and delicately formed lower jawbone" from one such urn, as this could offer a clue to the circumstance of the practice . I have to concede that the connection between the Bru type basins and the inverted urn tradition is (for the moment) tenuous at best, for the reasons you state ; but  note that a basin of sorts was found in connection with these urns in Yorkshire . It would be good to be able to compare this basin, (if photo or drawing be found), to that of Newgrange having two smaller 'saucers' within it ... And, somewhat futilely, i suggest there may have been other ancient British basins about which found employ in churches and at holy wells

kevin.b, on 9 August 2009 - 14:28, said:

At the risk of talking to myself, again.
Everything spirals clockwise or counter clockwise, one upward from the surface , the other downwards into the earth.
But these directions turn around on a cyclic basis, mostly at the moons direction.
If instead of viewing the physical, you consider as well the non physical, and further consider that it may have been the non physical lets say soul of the deceased that was prime concern of those incarnating their remains, then  the normal spiral direction at each point where the remains are found should be checked.
Of course nobody ever does , or considers any such thing relevent, so I will continue to waffle to myself, hopefully My waffling may one day catch the attention of one not totally locked into the physical mindset so firmly.
To them a rock is a rock, to me the rock influences direction , so a specific stone placed precisely may be to resist an upward flow , perhaps they didn't desire the deceased to return locally?
Or they alternately desired to assist the deceased as much as possible to return locally?
The trees turn around the field circulation direction aprox on the 20th of march locally here, so it will depend when a tree is cut and felled , which way it influences the field pattern about it, of course to the vast majority a tree trunk is a tree trunk, but not to odd balls like myself, talking to myself as usual.
Kevin

Kevin, i've found or believe you intuitive about the ancient ways . When i read:

Quote

The urn [...] was ornamented in the usual manner with indentations produced by a twisted thong.

Source: Grave Mounds and their Contents (figure 22 page 34, please see post 3)

I thought of your speaking about spirals and rotation . I would quite agree that these people held mystical beliefs, and make no objection to you airing yours here

Quote

perhaps they didn't desire the deceased to return locally?
Or they alternately desired to assist the deceased as much as possible to return locally?

Speaking hypothetically, one possibility is that different modes of burial may have been used for those whose lives were considered complete, and for those whose lives were considered incomplete

[kevin.b]

Anew,
    I am somewhat mechanical in My comprehension of the reasoning behind the megaliths and their methods.
I simply try my best to compare all I detect , and then best reason what was going on.
I honestly report as I find, I do realise how individual what I waffle about sounds, but it is what I detect, and the fact that it matchs so precisely with all I find at sites gives me confidence that I am some sort of throw back to times when what I detect was a given as such, perhaps always the domain of the shamen, but never the less a global situation.
All materials are handed, they have chirality, some far far more than most, they also interact with what is admittadely invisable to our dominant senses, mainly because it is omni present, permeates all, We appear to have refined this out of our normal observations.
I wish in many ways what I detect didn't mirror the megaliths and norman churchs, then I could be normal, but they simply do, so I am stuck with trying to best decribe the indescribable.
thank you for listening and considering my waffling.
You have my utmost respect.
kevin

[shiny]

Hello all..........

Hi George,

The example you've shown at "Broomend of Crichie" looks like a belter from here.


Do you know whether it was fully fired?

[tiompan]

shiny, on 11 August 2009 - 17:04, said:

Hello all..........

Hi George,

The example you've shown at "Broomend of Crichie" looks like a belter from here.


Do you know whether it was fully fired?

Dunno Shiny , Can you tell from pics ? What difference does it make .

George

[shiny]

Hi George...........

It's very well preserved especially if it wasn't fired properly, and it must have been a very delicate operation to uncover it.

[Anew]

Hello, Shiny

I imagine that whether or not an urn was fully fired may have cultural relevance, it seems an interesting question



George, sorry to have overlooked your photos

It looks as though the urn was beneath those flat stones ? I'm curious about its position within the ring, (inverted urns are previously noted in connection with stones 1, 2 and (position) 5)

[tiompan]

shiny, on 12 August 2009 - 00:45, said:

Hi George...........

It's very well preserved especially if it wasn't fired properly, and it must have been a very delicate operation to uncover it.

   Just as you say ,well preserved and very carefully extricated , there was a stone underneath and subsequent RC dating
  produced an early Bronze Age date .

George

[tiompan]

Anew, on 12 August 2009 - 07:21, said:

Hello, Shiny

I imagine that whether or not an urn was fully fired may have cultural relevance, it seems an interesting question



George, sorry to have overlooked your photos

It looks as though the urn was beneath those flat stones ? I'm curious about its position within the ring, (inverted urns are previously noted in connection with stones 1, 2 and (position) 5)

     Yep , previous exacavation had shown that urns were found at stone sockets , the stones ahving been removed .if i remember correctly this was the same .Creamted bone was discovered in quite a few areas of the interior of the stone circle /henge too.

George

[Anew]

Quote

To dry whole branches or stems, first wash and dry them as described above. Gather 5 to 8 stems together and tie them into a bundle. Place them into a brown paper bag with the stems extending out of the open end. Hang the bag in a dark, warm place (70°F to 80°F). It will take from 2 to 4 weeks for your herbs to become completely dry, depending upon temperature and moisture.

Source: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign

I think the practice of drying herbs upside down in a moisture-permeable container, such as unglazed pottery, (and i imagine also storing them that way), may have been approached with reverence by this culture ; particularly in the case of meadowsweet, (mentioned by tiompan) : fragrant, flavorful and medicinal . I suggest that this may be tied to the practice of burying cremations in inverted urns ; (these as though symbolically protected from the wet above and below by the flat stones which accompany them) . If so, to their minds, it may have represented preservation of the person(s) in an awakenable state


{ Thanks to Traci Matlock for reposting the photo of herbs under glass i found this morning }

[tiompan]

Anew, on 18 August 2009 - 11:38, said:

Quote

To dry whole branches or stems, first wash and dry them as described above. Gather 5 to 8 stems together and tie them into a bundle. Place them into a brown paper bag with the stems extending out of the open end. Hang the bag in a dark, warm place (70°F to 80°F). It will take from 2 to 4 weeks for your herbs to become completely dry, depending upon temperature and moisture.

Source: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign

I think the practice of drying herbs upside down in a moisture-permeable container, such as unglazed pottery, (and i imagine also storing them that way), may have been approached with reverence by this culture ; particularly in the case of meadowsweet, (mentioned by tiompan) : fragrant, flavorful and medicinal . I suggest that this may be tied to the practice of burying cremations in inverted urns ; (these as though symbolically protected from the wet above and below by the flat stones which accompany them) . If so, to their minds, it may have represented preservation of the person(s) in an awakenable state


{ Thanks to Traci Matlock for reposting the photo of herbs under glass i found this morning }

  One point against that Anew is that cremation in many cultures is seen as ensuring that the spirit has left the body .
  Which might suggest that regeneration was not a option .
  George